Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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turbo2ltr said:
Please note, I never said anything about keeping our concerns to ourselves. I was commenting on the *public* complaining. For certain Nissan needs to know that we aren't happy with the battery performance. I understand that public outcry is the fastest way to get a corporation to take action when it comes to things like this, but I'm just not sure if airing the dirty laundry in public is in the best interests of EVs as a whole. Again, merely food for thought, I'm kinda on the fence about the whole thing.

I appreciate your nuanced view turbo. I might diverge a bit on the 'public airing' part. I debated the lease versus buy choice and ended up buying the car. If I was in the market today and had access to the concerns of my fellow Arizonans I would lease. All in all I am an asset for Nissan, in all my parking lot conversations with passersby I advocate strongly for the technology.
 
DesertDenizen said:
I appreciate your nuanced view turbo. I might diverge a bit on the 'public airing' part. I debated the lease versus buy choice and ended up buying the car. If I was in the market today and had access to the concerns of my fellow Arizonans I would lease. All in all I am an asset for Nissan, in all my parking lot conversations with passersby I advocate strongly for the technology.
Same here I'm an advocate whenever I am in public. As a buyer not a leaser I am understandably concerned about a potential financial mistake I may have executed in needing to buy a battery early on the vehicles life (I understood the risks going in). 109 in Nashville yesterday, 113 in Murfreesboro. I live in a warm climate for sure. I'm concerned.

I'm not going to panic and sell the vehicle before the public 'gets wind' of the problems, though that is an understandable reaction. I'm going to bide my time and evaluate my options for other EV's as they come to market. I may trade in a year, maybe two, maybe even for another Nissan EV. In the meantime I await the action or inaction of Nissan to deal with the hot climate issue.

They did put a cold climate option into the 2012 LEAF. Engineering a hot climate option will take longer and cost more, but they may well do something like that. Owners in the pacific Northwest don't need active cooling, but I believe some do.

I'd like to see an active cooling option that would allow me to chill my battery overnight to say 62 degrees such that on a hot day if I knew I had no where to plug in at work or the mall it would not overheat by the time I was able to lug it in again.

Time will tell if Nissan fumble the ball or not.
 
Stanton said:
turbo2ltr said:
So while part of me wants to stand up out of anger and yell "Hey nissan, I feel cheated, what are you going to do to make this right"....the other part of me wants to say "Hey nissan, thanks for a pretty damn good first try. Sure it wasn't quite perfect, but I recognize it took some pretty big cojones and a boatload of money to actually get the first mass produced EV to market. Thanks for being the trailblazer so others may follow.

+1: couldn't have said it better myself. While I have NOT (yet) lost any bars, I DID buy, and know the Texas heat (even with my typical 80% charge routine) will eventually have a negative impact on my battery capacity. Having said that, I too am a chronic 'early adopter' that has waited nearly 20 years for someone like Nissan to have the balls to build a practical, affordable EV I can buy. I trust that whatever cost/benefit analysis they performed which lead to the temperature management/battery performance choices made was sound: there's just too many GOOD things about this car for me to believe they didn't think that one through as well.

+1 to what both of you said.

Turbo,
I am sorry that you lost the second bar and hope your Leaf still has enough range for your needs. I am sure Nissan tested preproduction Leafs extensively at their test track near Maricopa so they must have determined that our climate was appropriate because Arizona was part of the initial roll out. Nissan and the early adopters will know a lot more about the long-term effects of our climate and usage patterns on the batteries after a few years of continuing use.

Stanton,
Like you, I purchased my Leaf because I waited 20 years for an affordable EV and intend to keep it for a long time. I have been following this thread, but not posting much since I still have all 12 bars. I hope the batteries stand up to my use (or abuse--always 100% charge and usually fairly deep discharge) long enough to make it cost-effective to replace them when necessary and keep my Leaf on the road for a long time.

Gerry

P.S. Good points about advocating and not overreacting in posts by JPWhite and DesertDenizen while I was slowly typing my reply.
 
GerryAZ said:
Stanton,
Like you, I purchased my Leaf because I waited 20 years for an affordable EV and intend to keep it for a long time. I have been following this thread, but not posting much since I still have all 12 bars. I hope the batteries stand up to my use (or abuse--always 100% charge and usually fairly deep discharge) long enough to make it cost-effective to replace them when necessary and keep my Leaf on the road for a long time.

Gerry

P.S. Good points about advocating and not overreacting in posts by JPWhite and DesertDenizen while I was slowly typing my reply.

Do you know your capacity by any chance? I think finding people in AZ with <15% losses
after a year would shed some light on how bad a problem this really is.
 
My efforts to limit overnight temperature in my garage have enabled my Leaf to still get down from 6 to 5 temperature bars each the morning, but that will end in a week or two as summer progresses.

Daytime temps in the high 80%, no parking in sun, night time garage temperature minimum in the mid to high 60s.

For past 3 weeks since last "80% charge", no 100% charges, but new "80% charge" this morning showed a decline of 5 more gids, to 218, or 4.7% loss at 80%. At this rate by October, when cooler weather returns, I could easily be down 15 more gids, for 10% loss at 80% charge, probably 12% loss at "100%" charge.

I would have gladly paid more for a the cooling loop for the battery. I was thinking this could have been just an extension of the loop already present for the charger, but the charger may be allowed to get hotter than we would want the battery, so the cooling would have to be separate.
 
tbleakne said:
My efforts to limit overnight temperature in my garage have enabled my Leaf to still get down from 6 to 5 temperature bars each the morning, but that will end in a week or two as summer progresses.
I am still thinking a simple wall AC unit in the garage might make sense, at least to take the edge off the hottest days. Prolonging battery life is worth using some energy.

tbleakne said:
For past 3 weeks since last "80% charge", no 100% charges, but new "80% charge" this morning showed a decline of 5 more gids, to 218, or 4.7% loss at 80%. At this rate by October, when cooler weather returns, I could easily be down 15 more gids, for 10% loss at 80% charge, probably 12% loss at "100%" charge.
I think we should be careful extrapolating like that. I personally regard such gid measurements as mere approximations of a chemical system. Hopefully you won't lose as much this summer.

tbleakne said:
I would have gladly paid more for a cooling loop for the battery.
Apparently Ford felt their customers would agree, hence the Ford Focus Electric at $40K.
 
tbleakne said:
I would have gladly paid more for a the cooling loop for the battery. I was thinking this could have been just an extension of the loop already present for the charger, but the charger may be allowed to get hotter than we would want the battery, so the cooling would have to be separate.

And what would you have been willing to pay for that 'cooling loop for the battery'? $5000 (the price of a Focus)? I for one would NOT have; I can remember months ago when we were all complaining that the price of the Leaf should have DROPPED $5k (especially after they raised the price of the 2012).
My point is this: we may never know the design trade-offs that resulted in the Leaf we got, and we don't (yet) know the long-term trend due to climate conditions. All we DO know is that Nissan collected loads of weather-related data on the battery pack, and they decided (due to cost, complexity, or both) to engineer the car the way they did.
 
So I charged last night to 100%.

GID is 213, pack volts is 393.75 (assuming I did the conversion right)
I lost the first bar at 228 gid.

According to the blink, I used 14.1kwh to charge yesterday.
I parked it with three bars/19 miles left. Probably not useful without a gid count.
 
turbo2ltr said:
So I charged last night to 100%.
GID is 213, pack volts is 393.75 (assuming I did the conversion right)
I lost the first bar at 228 gid.

so 24% loss?

The cooling plates used in the Volt are 2mm thick, plus a square section at the base for the coolant fittings, lets say 1/2" square by a couple of inches long.. no idea if there is any room inside the battery case for the plates, plus the insulation. You would also need a chiller in the AC loop and a coolant pump. I dont see $5k anywhere. If the active cooling system is opted out that would leave room for a few more modules.
 
TickTock said:
Seeing how I lost my top bar a couple days after you, I'm watching mine every minute now. :) I got 213 for 100% this morning, too, but still have 11.

I believe you two will lose your second bar very soon. 213G is about 75% which based on 94-95% (not 100%) is about a 19-20% loss. At 21.25% a second bar will disappear. I tested a new 2012 recently, charged to 100%, and it was 95%. This is why I don't use 100% or 281 as a base here to get a reading. Maybe the people in the cooler states can though. Another new one was tested and it was 97%. That second one may not have sat as long on the lot in the heat as the first one.
 
I confess I only got about a third through this thread, but has anyone calculated the energy cost of keeping the climate control on, say at 85F while it is plugged in? Surely cheaper than putting AC into a garage, just need a cheap exhaust fan and let the car cool its battery!
 
jimbennett said:
I confess I only got about a third through this thread, but has anyone calculated the energy cost of keeping the climate control on, say at 85F while it is plugged in? Surely cheaper than putting AC into a garage, just need a cheap exhaust fan and let the car cool its battery!

I doubt keeping the vehicle interior cool will help the battery much at all, in fact the energy discharge to maintain a cool interior may hinder natural cooling of the battery.

I don't think climate control will stay on for more than 30 minutes at a time anyway unless the vehicle is powered on.
 
Updating Mark13's 2nd bar loss.

1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012)
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012)
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7, 2012. 10.2K/ 14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas
16. Shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K/ 10.5 months. Phoenix
17. ravi100 - June 24, 2012. 13.1K/ 13.5 months. Southlake, Texas
18. ev4me - approx. June 1, 2012. 7K/ 15 mos. Phoenix (Dropped 2 bars)
19. jspearman - June 28, 2012, ?/10.5 months. Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix
 
Fairly significant increase in reported Phoenix temperatures April through June 2012, as opposed to the 30 year average, as well as to last year.

That can't be helping...

You can use the link below to find average, as well as daily high, low, etc., for your own location.

Phoenix Area (ThreadEx Station)
Monthly Totals/Averages
Average Temperature (degrees F)
Years: 1981-2010

Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
Average 56.5 59.8 65.3 72.8 82.1 90.9 94.8 93.6 88.4 76.7 64.2 55.5 75.0


Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
2011 55.7 55.2 67.8 74.3 78.8 90.8 95.2 98.3 91.4 78.8 63.5 53.2 75.2

Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Annual
2012 58.7 60.3 65.9 75.1 84.5 93.8 -
http://www.nws.noaa.gov/climate/xmacis.php?wfo=psr

Of course, battery life may not be your greatest concern...

•The combined global land and ocean average surface temperature for May 2012 was 0.66°C (1.19°F) above the 20th century average of 14.8°C (58.6°F). This is the second warmest May since records began in 1880, behind only 2010.

•The Northern Hemisphere land and ocean average surface temperature for May 2012 was the all-time warmest May on record, at 0.85°C (1.53°F) above average.

•The globally-averaged land surface temperature for May 2012 was the all-time warmest May on record, at 1.21°C (2.18°F) above average.

June temp data not posted yet.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/2012/5" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
An update on my battery condition... I lost my 1st Bar May 12th @ 13633 miles. Location = Phoenix Area. I attended the Phoenix EAA meeting this month, where a ScanGage was made available (Big Thanks to Jim!!!).

I charged to 80% on a Blink charger, and read the ScanGage : SOC = 61.9%

Then, I continued the charge to 100% and read the ScanGage : SOC = 72.9%

Current Mileage = 15,364. I did an "informal" capacity check one week ago, and ran the Leaf down past Very Low Battery, but did not hit Turtle mode, and ran a full charge with my Blink at home. It showed 19.5 kw consumed. Of course that is what the charger output, not what actually got into the battery. Actual distance traveled was 58 miles, and I average about 4.5 mi/kw indicated on the Leafs center display. Sigh, I think my second bar will be coming soon...
 
bturner said:
An update on my battery condition...

Then, I continued the charge to 100% and read the ScanGage : SOC = 72.9%

Current Mileage = 15,364. I did an "informal" capacity check one week ago, and ran the Leaf down past Very Low Battery, but did not hit Turtle mode, and ran a full charge with my Blink at home. It showed 19.5 kw consumed. Of course that is what the charger output, not what actually got into the battery. Actual distance traveled was 58 miles, and I average about 4.5 mi/kw indicated on the Leafs center display. Sigh, I think my second bar will be coming soon...

Do I understand correctly, that you made this range test from a 100% charge?

58 miles at 4.5 m/kWh is under 13 kWh. That doesn't seem to be consistent with the 19.5 kWh blink report, unless the charge was only ~66% efficient.

I'd suggest you look at Carwings reports of kWh consumed, for the day of this or any future range tests.
 
edatoakrun said:
I'd suggest you look at Carwings reports of kWh consumed, for the day of this or any future range tests.

You jest sir?

My Carwings efficiency for June is 6.1 m/kWh. Reality is closer to 4.1
 
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