Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

A friend in Cavecreek, AZ (outside Phoenix) was considering buying a Leaf... In light of recent developments in that area, I talked here out of it and in to buying a Volt instead... She picked it up last night and loves it.

TomT said:

A friend in Carefree, AZ (outside Phoenix) was considering buying a Leaf... In light of recent developments in that area, I talked here out of it and in to buying a Volt instead... She picked it up last night and loves it.

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Unfortunately, that will be happening more and more until Nissan handles this problem. You did the right thing. I advised a co-worker to buy a Volt also (although as much due to her needs as the heat sensitivity of the Leaf).

surfingslovak said:

There is a healthy cushion at the top, especially if you only charge to 80%, and an equally healthy cushion at the bottom, if you don't go below the low battery warning. In fact, cycling the battery between 80% and the LBW pretty much emulates what the Volt does with its pack. GM is arguably using a pretty conservative approach there, and their chemistry is similar to ours.

That said, I agree with George that cycling around the middle is both safe and conservative, and you can't go wrong doing that. There is one thing to consider however: 40% SOC could be as good, if not better as your pivot point.

...

Finding a balance between these two processes is a relevant concern for storage. Running a shallow cycle has presumably other benefits as well, but it appears that most of the losses we are currently seeing are due to storage and calendar life, and not cycling.

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Great chart. But I think the problem is heat not SOC. Rather than saying that 40% SOC would be better I'd say 40C would be better. In other words it's heat more than cycling and, while cycling might help at the edges, if it's hot and you don't have a way to effectively cool the cells then you're going to have accelerated degradation.

In this regard the huge advantage of the Volt is that if it's plugged in when in the garage, even if the ambient garage temperature is 120F the cells will be a nice comfortable 70-80F. I also believe I've seen that if the SOC is reasonably high, the Volt will also use the battery pack to cool itself even if not plugged in. That should help to somewhat minimize the problems of the heat soak at work if you can't plug in.

Even with these advantages the battery life of a Volt will be shorter in AZ than in MN. Heat is just a problem and in places like AZ you have lots of heat. (Places like IA can be unbearable for us because of high humidity but not so much for the cells. For the cells it's all about temperature).

Stoaty said:

Unfortunately, that will be happening more and more until Nissan handles this problem. You did the right thing. I advised a co-worker to buy a Volt also (although as much due to her needs as the heat sensitivity of the Leaf).

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I think the big downside for Nissan is that by not doing anything they're going to allow the heat related battery degradation issue to get out of hand. Realistically not getting a Leaf if you live in Phoenix or Palm Springs -- or leasing if you want one -- is a good recommendation. But what will happen is that this common sense advice will start being applied to a much wider geographic area. People in CO will start thinking "it's been 100F here last week so this will be a problem" when in fact there is huge difference between CO and AZ. Just about everywhere gets hot occasionally. Given the way people approach new threats, there is a big risk that potential customers will start thinking the Leaf isn't suitable for any of these locations, when in fact that's simply not the case. This might turn "be careful in Phoenix" into "don't get a Leaf if it ever gets hot because the battery won't last".

That is exactly correct, IMHO. Nissan must come up with a satisfying response or there is going to be a very unfortunate conclusion.

SanDust said:

Stoaty said:

Unfortunately, that will be happening more and more until Nissan handles this problem. You did the right thing. I advised a co-worker to buy a Volt also (although as much due to her needs as the heat sensitivity of the Leaf).

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I think the big downside for Nissan is that by not doing anything they're going to allow the heat related battery degradation issue to get out of hand. Realistically not getting a Leaf if you live in Phoenix or Palm Springs -- or leasing if you want one -- is a good recommendation. But what will happen is that this common sense advice will start being applied to a much wider geographic area. People in CO will start thinking "it's been 100F here last week so this will be a problem" when in fact there is huge difference between CO and AZ. Just about everywhere gets hot occasionally. Given the way people approach new threats, there is a big risk that potential customers will start thinking the Leaf isn't suitable for any of these locations, when in fact that's simply not the case. This might turn "be careful in Phoenix" into "don't get a Leaf if it ever gets hot because the battery won't last".

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Adding another affected owner from Phoenix (jspearman) who just reported his loss today in the other thread "How Should Nissan Respond to Dropping Capacity in Phoenix?"

1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7, 2012. 10.2K/ 14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas
16. Shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K/ 10.5 months. Phoenix
17. ravi100 - June 24, 2012. 13.1K/ 13.5 months. Southlake, Texas
18. ev4me - approx. June 1, 2012. 7K/ 15 mos. Phoenix (Dropped 2 bars)
19. jspearman - June 28, 2012, ?/10.5 months. Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix

This is a post copied from the myfocuselectric.com forum. The poster is in Kansas:

"My car notified me today when I started it up to leave work that "It's Hot Outside... Plug Vehicle in When Not in Use". We are having an early hot spell in KC and it was around the century mark on the thermometer. It's supposed to be about the same every day for the next week - this is June, right?

"No noticeable performance issues, but I did as the car suggested and plugged it in when I got home."
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It seems unlikely that this warning resulted from the info reported here on MNL, given the short time frame between the first reports and the release of the FFE to consumers, so it appears Ford was well aware of potential accelerated battery degradation in high temps and took pre-emptive steps to ameliorate them. IMO this makes Nissan's 'move along, nothing to see here' attitude even more reprehensible.

Guy,
did you buy your leaf yet?

thankyouOB said:

Guy,
did you buy your leaf yet?

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Nope, and have no plans to do so until an EV meets my needs. But that doesn't stop me from being infuriated at how shabbily Nissan is treating their customers who are experiencing real problems, which will almost certainly result in all EVs (not just Leafs) taking an undeserved hit to their reputation. It's entirely preventable. Nissan should treat their customers as intelligent beings rather than mushrooms. The more info you give them, the more intelligently they can operate their equipment, and the fewer unpleasant surprises there are.

At the risk of sounding like Don Rumsfeld, I believe that quality pre-sales customer service of a new technology requires informing the customer of the known knowns and the known unknowns; the enthusiasts have already accepted the risks of the unknown unknowns. I think Nissan has failed this on both counts.

[Edit: corrected typos]

So I haven't been keeping up on this thread...

My leaf had a little surprise for me this morning

turbo2ltr said:

So I haven't been keeping up on this thread...

My leaf had a little surprise for me this morning

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Another one bites the dust. What was your gid count?

I didn't notice until I was on the road already. I'll have to check tomorrow.

What sucks is I have to take a long trip today which I used to be able to do no problem, now I feel like I have to top off at the office before I go...which of course is not good for the battery, but I don't want to pay to charge for a long time at the office..

This is the first time I feel that the leaf may not work for me the whole 3 years. I'm just really glad I leased.

turbo2ltr said:

So I haven't been keeping up on this thread...

My leaf had a little surprise for me this morning

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That is terrible! I admit I cringe every time I start my Leaf, as I sneak a peek at the number of bars showing.

Updating Turbo2ltr 2nd bar loss.

1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012)
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7, 2012. 10.2K/ 14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas
16. Shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K/ 10.5 months. Phoenix
17. ravi100 - June 24, 2012. 13.1K/ 13.5 months. Southlake, Texas
18. ev4me - approx. June 1, 2012. 7K/ 15 mos. Phoenix (Dropped 2 bars)
19. jspearman - June 28, 2012, ?/10.5 months. Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix

Wow, I just realized according to the gauge, my capacity has dropped 6.25% in exactly 6 weeks to the day. That's a rather alarming rate. (2nd bar turns off at 78.75%). I haven't even driven 1000 miles since losing the first bar.

I do still charge to 100% but I changed my end time so it reaches 100% just before I leave in the morning, and 80% on the weekends.

Dang 1% a week you will be about done by end of summer

Do we need a down to 9 thread? Down to 8 etc?

turbo2ltr said:

I didn't notice until I was on the road already. I'll have to check tomorrow.

What sucks is I have to take a long trip today which I used to be able to do no problem, now I feel like I have to top off at the office before I go...which of course is not good for the battery, but I don't want to pay to charge for a long time at the office..

This is the first time I feel that the leaf may not work for me the whole 3 years. I'm just really glad I leased.

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Yikes. Sorry to hear that. Hope you can make your commute. Glad you leased as well. Have you considered filing a complaint like some of the others? I'm curious to hear how Nissan will respond to 2 bars lost in - what is it for you? 1-1/2 years?

Well, I take that back. I imagine they'll call it "gradual" and "non-linear," but at least you can get that on record if you file a complaint.

turbo2ltr said:

So I haven't been keeping up on this thread...

My leaf had a little surprise for me this morning

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I see you still have all the double power bubbles, so there is no warranty coverage either. That really sucks.

Is the GOM 67 miles in Drive or Eco?

turbo2ltr said:

Wow, I just realized according to the gauge, my capacity has dropped 6.25% in exactly 6 weeks to the day. That's a rather alarming rate. (2nd bar turns off at 78.75%). I haven't even driven 1000 miles since losing the first bar.

I do still charge to 100% but I changed my end time so it reaches 100% just before I leave in the morning, and 80% on the weekends.

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Sorry to hear that, Turbo. I was kind of hoping for no worse than 1 bar a year. I'm currently charging to 80% every day, driving enough to bring it down to 2-3 bars (my normal routine), taking GID readings every morning. Almost every day during this June since then, I've lost 1 GID a day. It's constantly at 7 bars now, nighttime temps are around 95.

I'm definitely paranoid about charging to 100%.

Turbo, if you can take your GID reading we can see where that lies.

We've been following the reports from several LEAF Owners who are reporting battery capacity loss after a year (+/- a few months). As with all Li-ion batteries, capacity loss is inevitable. In general, all batteries exhibit a higher loss of capacity early in life, but then the curve flattens over time. If a LEAF is treated as outlined in the Owner’s Manual, you can expect 80 percent of the battery capacity after 5 years. Variables including driving conditions and habits could make that number higher or lower. If any of our Owners are concerned with their LEAFs battery capacity, we encourage them to visit their Nissan dealer and/or contact our EV Support Team at 1.877.NO GAS EV. - Jonathan C., Nissan Social

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from Nissan Leaf Facebook