Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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TickTock said:
Whoa, did I miss something? If I only set the end timer, will the car adjust the start time to finish at the set end time?

It's supposed to... I have my end time set for 6:30am , but I got a "charge complete" at 3:33 and again at 4:34....It always seems to end very early. Though if I remember right, there was something relating to charge times in a firmware update...which I dont have.
 
turbo2ltr said:
TickTock said:
Whoa, did I miss something? If I only set the end timer, will the car adjust the start time to finish at the set end time?

It's supposed to... I have my end time set for 6:30am , but I got a "charge complete" at 3:33 and again at 4:34....It always seems to end very early. Though if I remember right, there was something relating to charge times in a firmware update...which I dont have.
The amount of early completion seems to vary. Charging to 100% on an end timer always ended 45-75 minutes early. (This is pre-2012 update.)

In any case, using the end timer only will adjust the start-time automatically, though somewhat early.
 
turbo2ltr said:
Range on first bar does not seem to be affected. But according to the numbers, I'm overdue for losing a capacity bar as I have 19% loss (a 100% charge will only charge to the original 81% level)
Maybe we need a new spreadsheet to track capacity loss...

Maybe you haven't shown a capacity bar loss because you are only at 86%. Only once have I seen 100% SoC...most were 93-95%. I predict you will lose it soon. I'm at 83% SoC now.
 
shrink said:
TonyWilliams said:
TickTock said:
Whoa, did I miss something? If I only set the end timer, will the car adjust the start time to finish at the set end time?


Yes.

I did not know that. Thanks! Is that in the manual or did someone figure it out?

Page CH-20 of the owners manual

When only the charging timer end time
is set, the system automatically determines
when to begin charging based
on the Li-ion battery charge level. The
Li-ion battery may not be charged to
the expected level (80% or 100%) if the
charging timer end time is set so there
is not enough time to charge the Li-ion
battery.
. When only the charging timer end time
is set, the system automatically stops
charging when the Li-ion battery
charges to the selected level (80% or
100%). Charging may stop before the
scheduled end time.
 
turbo2ltr said:
TickTock said:
Whoa, did I miss something? If I only set the end timer, will the car adjust the start time to finish at the set end time?
It's supposed to... I have my end time set for 6:30am , but I got a "charge complete" at 3:33 and again at 4:34....It always seems to end very early. Though if I remember right, there was something relating to charge times in a firmware update...which I don't have.
I was rather expecting the update to make the times more accurate, but I got mine updated at the 1-year check nearly two weeks ago,and so far it doesn't seem to have made a difference. My ending times since the update have ranged from 4:42 AM to 5:17 AM with a Timer end time of 7 AM and no timer start time. (Yes, I did turn on DST down in the Menu Settings.) Possibly my 12A EVSEupgrade is confusing the logic.

Ray
 
planet4ever said:
turbo2ltr said:
TickTock said:
Whoa, did I miss something? If I only set the end timer, will the car adjust the start time to finish at the set end time?
It's supposed to... I have my end time set for 6:30am , but I got a "charge complete" at 3:33 and again at 4:34....It always seems to end very early. Though if I remember right, there was something relating to charge times in a firmware update...which I don't have.
I was rather expecting the update to make the times more accurate, but I got mine updated at the 1-year check nearly two weeks ago,and so far it doesn't seem to have made a difference. My ending times since the update have ranged from 4:42 AM to 5:17 AM with a Timer end time of 7 AM and no timer start time. (Yes, I did turn on DST down in the Menu Settings.) Possibly my 12A EVSEupgrade is confusing the logic.

Ray


Not having all the information, such as SOC, but wouldn't this make sense? Your use isn't consistent everyday, so wouldn't it make sense to reason that your time will vary depending on the capacity?
 
No the idea (in theory) is that if you only supply an end time, and since the car knows the SOC and should be able to estimate charge time knowing what charger is plugged in, it will start the charge the appropriate amount of time before the end time to get a full (or 80%) charge no matter what your start-of-charge SOC is.
 
ztanos said:
Not having all the information, such as SOC, but wouldn't this make sense? Your use isn't consistent everyday, so wouldn't it make sense to reason that your time will vary depending on the capacity?
It seems to me that the ending time is quite consistent, just much earlier than advertised. +/-30 minutes is reasonable, but 2 hours early, +/-30 minutes??

Ray
 
TickTock said:
Whoa, did I miss something? If I only set the end timer, will the car adjust the start time to finish at the set end time?
With end time only set, mine seems to start charging using the estimated hours shown on the dash. And of course the time shown is longer than actual.
 
aqn said:
I disagree. More information is always better. But that's just me. I encourage all high mileage (say, > 13K miles/year) LEAF owners to report battery capacity loss/non-loss, along with pertinent info: locale/temperature, charging habit, etc.
Bought my Leaf in March of 2011, now have over 16,000 miles on it, and have no noticable loss of capacity.

Monday through Sat. I charge to 80%, for the first 12 months on L1 primary.

Sunday I charge to 100% twice. I make a 70 mile one way trip over a mountain to the high desert, where temps get into the 100's, and lows get into the single digits. I have always made it to the destination, and I alter speed and heater use to do so without a low battery warning. Normal battery level at destination is just before or at the first low battery alert. Elevation is a factor on these trips, some 3000' or so.

I have no GID meter. Starting a second year of ownership I have not been able to discern any changes in the vehicle at all, but the software updates have made monitoring that a bit difficult. My one year battery check showed no issues.

I am careful not to top off the battery, always forcing the car to go below an 80% charge state before plugging it back in. This is not as easy as it sounds in some areas, but if you tromp on that 80KW motor, it can happen pretty fast, so hard braking and fast starts with the heater on is what it gets if I need the 100% but opted to go out to lunch at a close by eatery. Charging after just a 3 mile drive seems silly to me, just drive a bit slower if you need to, and even an extra 10 miles should not be an issue.

All of this talk about slow charging and fast charging hurting the battery seems silly to me also. Every Sunday I coast down a mountain and regen at the rate of 15 - 30 KW, which is like a fast charge from a 440 line, and I dare say most of you do it when you slow from highway speeds. I don't believe it hurts the battery beyond what one should expect from a battery.

Learning to care for your Leaf is what will make the difference in how long your car will last - just like owners that don't change filters in an ICE - it will have a long term consequence. How much of a consequence? Well that is what this forum is great for, and I hope my 2 cents helps in some way.
 
Re:.-1

Thanks for sharing your drive parameters and your experience. It is good to know that you are able to go 70 miles and climb 3000 ft on a single charge.

Questions:


- is this in CA?

- when you charge 100% in the morning, do you have it plugged in for a few more hours for the so called 'cell balancing'?

- how much do you charge for your return trip on top of the mountain? 80% or even less? Is that in L1 or L2 ? Where?

Thanks
Jay
 
Caracalover said:
All of this talk about slow charging and fast charging hurting the battery seems silly to me also. Every Sunday I coast down a mountain and regen at the rate of 15 - 30 KW, which is like a fast charge from a 440 line, and I dare say most of you do it when you slow from highway speeds. I don't believe it hurts the battery beyond what one should expect from a battery.

I agree with you, but why are you assuming that driving the Leaf in mountainous terrain wont hurt the battery life?
 
Flat highway is what ~1C discharge rate? Long hill might be an extended 2C discharge rate. Could make a difference if done every day as part of regular commuting.
Maybe no effect.
 
C1 discharge is usually not considered strenuous, but 80kW full throttle is only 3.33C so perhaps its marginal. Volt runs up to 7C I believe, but the battery is actively cooled.
 
smkettner said:
Flat highway is what ~C1 discharge rate? Long hill might be an extended C2 discharge rate. Could make a difference if done every day as part of regular commuting.
Maybe no effect.
Herm said:
C1 discharge is usually not considered strenuous, but 80kW full throttle is only 3.33C so perhaps its marginal. Volt runs up to 7C I believe, but the battery is actively cooled.
Before we get too far down this thread, I just wanted to note that it should be stated as "1C" or "2C." Less than 1C could be written as C/2 (for one-half C). ;)
 
It's official.. Lost the bar today.

I find it incredibly hard to believe that so many people would loose the first capacity bar within what, 2 weeks? With such a vast range of mileage. Just doesn't make sense.

I charged to 100% last night after not charging for 3 days (did ~45 miles in 3 days mixed local and highway, had 4 bars and 28 miles on the GoM)

I got to 231 gids, and that (according to the data I collected when I first got the car) is also where an 80% charge stops. It's also a little higher than what I reported last time.

What really threw me off is when I lost one SOC bar, I initially thought the capacity bar came back as the two meters were level with each other again...but that wasn't the case after counting the bars. heh.

I do a long trip today, let see how it goes.

Man I wish I was tracking capacity this whole time so we could of had a degradation curve.
 
I've got some oddities in the number of Gids/SOC reported by the Gidometer, and also with the miles available on the GOM. Both have been lower than previously encountered during the last couple of weeks. For example, I charged to just 80% last night and received only 201 Gids for my troubles. However, still no capacity bar loss, and I haven't seen a massive change in the protected range stilk available to me come the end of the day - just a marginal loss easily attributed to a more relaxed driving style from the more paranoid style I was using when I first got the car. Don't know what all that means.
 
turbo2ltr said:
It's official.. Lost the bar today.
That sucks. Thanks for letting us know.
turbo2ltr said:
I find it incredibly hard to believe that so many people would loose the first capacity bar within what, 2 weeks? With such a vast range of mileage. Just doesn't make sense.
Has it been particularly hot over the past month?
turbo2ltr said:
Man I wish I was tracking capacity this whole time so we could of had a degradation curve.
Perhaps it would be good to start now. I wonder if anyone in Phoenix has been tracking Gids over the past year.
 
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