Poway to Julian, California; 81 miles, 6700 feet gain

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Your estimate seems reasonable. My real world experience on a drive from the middle of the San Fernando Valley (elevation 800) to Newcombs Ranch on the Angeles Crest Highway (elevation 5600) resulted in between 9 and 10 bars burned (47 miles). On the return trip, it took 38 miles before I consumed one bar.... :cool:
 
Distance: 40.55 miles.....return 40.55 miles, total 81.1 miles

Elevation gain: 5189 ft.............1585 ft..... total gain 6774 feet

Elevation loss: 1585 ft..............5189 ft......total loss 6774 feet

The trip was a success.

Julian Pie Company. Am I the first LEAF in this town?

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I used 9 bars on the climb, and drove 41 miles. The Guess-O-Meter was showing 18 miles remaining and 3 bars for my 41 mile return. I did about 20 total miles of pure coasting. I didn't drop to 2 bars until 66.6 miles into the trip (about 26.5 miles on the return from Julian) The trip was complete with one bar showing, just before the Low Battery Warning came on.

100% battery charge to 18% charge remaining after 81 miles total.

After I had driven 64.9 miles into the 81 mile trip... see that 27 miles of Guess-O-Meter range? The Navigation still thinks it's out of range with only 16 miles to go!!! What a tool !

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The end of the trip. I took a little detour that added about 0.7 miles. The Low Battery Warning popped up just a bit later at 17.5%

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drees said:
Can you give all the details as I have a trip I'd like to try that's similar, except to the other side of Julian to Shelter Valley. Did you fully charge at Nissan Poway? How much charge did you have loft when you got to Julian after your trip?

I did not charge at Nissan in Poway. I drove right on by. I did let the car charge to 100%, then cool for an hour or three in a garage that was about 65 degrees, and then pumped a few more electrons in until it wouldn't charge any more.

Your trip has a few significant challenges beyond my trip:

.......................Your Trip.......Your Trip to Julian...My Trip to Julian.....
Distance:........ 68.13 mi.............55.45 mi................40.55 mi...........
Elevation gain: 7326 ft..............6591 ft...................5189 ft..............
Elevation loss: -5195 ft............-2717 ft.................-1585 ft.............

Getting to Julian will not be trivial. I arrived with 3 bars, and you will climb 1400 feet more, and drive 15 more miles. Those extra 15 miles, even at 45mph, will be two full additional fuel bars burned, PLUS at least one half to over one fuel bar for additional elevation gain. You will be into some solid battery warnings, but it can be done in the 40-45mph range. If you can get to Julian, you can get to your destination.

Be mindful of the temperatures. It does have a measurable impact. You're cutting close enough that I wouldn't launch on a 90 something degree day. Clearly, weight will play a role here. How many are going, and how much baggage? Don't slow significantly in the corners, and then accelerate out of the corners. Try and pick a speed you can maintain through the twisties. I was down to 35 mph at many stretches, but didn't slow below that, and didn't accelerate past about 45mph. Slow and steady !

The only exception to the speed recommendations are that any downhill, where you should let it freewheel in Neutral to the 50mph range, and use the D or ECO mode to control speed. I tried not to press the brake pedal at all, unless I needed more regen to slow.

Getting past Julian is a non-event, obviously, if you just make it to Julian. I presume you'll get a nice solid charge at your destination? Your return trip will be easy from a full charge.
 
Nicely done and thanks for the detail!

Yes - I figure if I can get to Julian with a bar remaining I ought to be able to make it the rest of the way. Unfortunately, the other side is quite steep and windy - lots of regen will be used, but I'm afraid some friction brakes will be needed, too. Once at the bottom, there is another decent sized grade to at 55 mph to make it over before it levels out some.

Edit: Looking at your data in the previous post more closely, I'm thinking it may not be possible without going very slow or charging. It will certainly be cutting it very close - closer than comfort should anything unexpected arise. A 10 min quick charge in Ramona would be ideal. Too bad the Wild Animal Park doesn't have any L2 stations - could stop there for a couple hours on the way.
 
drees said:
Yes - I figure if I can get to Julian with a bar remaining I ought to be able to make it the rest of the way. .....
Edit: Looking at your data in the previous post more closely, I'm thinking it may not be possible without going very slow or charging. It will certainly be cutting it very close - closer than comfort should anything unexpected arise. A 10 min quick charge in Ramona would be ideal. Too bad the Wild Animal Park doesn't have any L2 stations - could stop there for a couple hours on the way.

Drive the Poway Nissan route, and charge there. There's shopping / lunch spots within a 15 minute walk west on Poway Road.

Without a charge, you will hit that first battery warning. And since you'll be getting 3 miles/kWh or LESS for the final ascent, you'll have 9 miles or less at that point. Should "Very Low" pop up, you'll have less than 3 miles, so you should have plenty of data to know if you should just turn around and coast down to an electrical outlet anywhere before completing the climb to Julian.

Wynola or Santa Ysabel can both be rolled to easily (if you don't kill the battery first... don't do that!!) if you turn around prior to Julian, and there's got to be a plug-in somewhere. All the better if you can use a Quick 220 setup.
 
drees said:
... Too bad the Wild Animal Park doesn't have any L2 stations - could stop there for a couple hours on the way.
The park does have parking for RVs, with power, including 240v circuits. If you have a modded EVSE...

Report and pics at the link: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3318&p=78768&view=show#p78768" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
davewill said:
drees said:
... Too bad the Wild Animal Park doesn't have any L2 stations - could stop there for a couple hours on the way.
The park does have parking for RVs, with power, including 240v circuits. If you have a modded EVSE...

Report and pics at the link: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3318" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks - will have to check that out, didn't realize there was 240V there as well as 120V. Still need to send my EVSE out to get upgraded.

TonyWilliams said:
Drive the Poway Nissan route, and charge there. There's shopping / lunch spots within a 15 minute walk west on Poway Road.
Ideally I'd charge back up to 100% there - it's 21 miles slightly uphill, so would probably need 2 full hours to get back up to 100%. At least an hour would be required. Long wait... Wild Animal Park would be a much nicer way to spend a couple hours (have a Zoo pass) if I can get my EVSE modded and confirm the 240V outlets work.
 
Made my second trip to Julian, after a San Diego county snow storm. It was my Dad's 70th birthday, too, so to offset my green, zero carbon emission trip to Julian, we also flew the Piper Mailbu to Santa Catalina Island for lunch.

I used a bit more power on this trip, and had a bit less usable battery capacity with significantly lower ambient temps. Plus, more weight with 3 people vice just little 'ole me last summer, and my parents appreciated the heater!

Completed the trip with 85 miles at VLB. So, almost 90 miles of range.


 
TonyWilliams said:
Made my second trip to Julian...

Completed the trip with 85 miles at VLB. So, almost 90 miles of range.

Now that you have made multiple trips proving the 50% rate of recovery of ascent energy on your range chart is way off, will you please correct it? It looks to me like you get close to the 80% reported by several others.

If I had seen your range chart, and believed it, I would probably not have purchased a LEAF, as I would have been mislead to believe it unsuited to my driving range requirements.

I also expect that if you try the same trip entirely in ECO, you will find that there are negligible improvement in efficiency (if any) from shifting into D and N. The longer drive, re-posted below, with similar (?) ascent/descent (how did you calculate your total?-the profile you posted does not seem to match 6,700 ft) was done entirely in ECO.

Several recent posts on this thread saying hills limit their range, suggest the same underestimate of energy ascent recovery, as is shown in the range chart. Most of the energy used in climbing, will be recovered, as long as you return to the same altitude you started from.

In fact, I think most all those who regularly drive their LEAFs with large ascents and descents, have found similar ratios of ascent energy recovery that I have, about 80%, rather than the 50% shown in the range chart...

My longest range drive, over 92 miles to just past VLBW, on a hot summer day averaging about 40 mph, was a two way trip on the road profile below, with the first few (left of profile) miles repeated several times at the end, for a total ascent/descent of between 5,000 and 5,500 ft...

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http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=7022&start=220" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
edatoakrun said:
TonyWilliams said:
Made my second trip to Julian...

Completed the trip with 85 miles at VLB. So, almost 90 miles of range.

Now that you have made multiple trips proving the 50% rate of recovery of ascent energy on your range chart is way off, will you please correct it? It looks to me like you get close to the 80% reported by several others.

If I had seen your range chart, and believed it, I would probably not have purchased a LEAF, as I would have been mislead to believe it unsuited to my driving range requirements.

I also expect that if you try the same trip entirely in ECO, you will find that there are negligible improvement in efficiency (if any) from shifting into D and N. The longer drive, re-posted below, with similar (?) ascent/descent (how did you calculate your total?-the profile you posted does not seem to match 6,700 ft) was done entirely in ECO.

You're making a bunch of assumptions. First, this trip was not a data generating trip. Secondly, I did specifically >not< coast down like i did last time, and instead used regen and power (I constantly switch to ECO when there is a need for more regen without brake application... I prefer D mode for power application).

There is no good way to post facto try and accurately compare the two trips for the purpose of determining regen percent (at least to my satisfaction). We already know that it can be 0% with coasting in N or in either Eco or D with a full battery. We also know regen will never be close to 100%.

To figure our the parameters for regen on a range calculation beyond my mostly arbitrary 50%, I'm all ears. If your answer is just 80%, then we simply do not agree, and if my opinion, it is more wrong than a 50% for all scenarios.

Again, we have to establish the parameters to calculate it. We can measure with a Gid meter to get baseline data from test runs (there are definitely accuracy issues with this) but the more difficult part is organizing all the variables into a simple format.

PS: Almost forgot, both trips came up with substantially similar data outside the obvious battery capacity and heater issues associated with colder temps.
 
TonyWilliams said:
edatoakrun said:
TonyWilliams said:
Made my second trip to Julian...

Completed the trip with 85 miles at VLB. So, almost 90 miles of range.

Now that you have made multiple trips proving the 50% rate of recovery of ascent energy on your range chart is way off, will you please correct it? It looks to me like you get close to the 80% reported by several others.

If I had seen your range chart, and believed it, I would probably not have purchased a LEAF, as I would have been mislead to believe it unsuited to my driving range requirements.

I also expect that if you try the same trip entirely in ECO, you will find that there are negligible improvement in efficiency (if any) from shifting into D and N. The longer drive, re-posted below, with similar (?) ascent/descent (how did you calculate your total?-the profile you posted does not seem to match 6,700 ft) was done entirely in ECO.

You're making a bunch of assumptions. First, this trip was not a data generating trip. Secondly, I did specifically >not< coast down like i did last time, and instead used regen and power (I constantly switch to ECO when there is a need for more regen without brake application... I prefer D mode for power application).

There is no good way to post facto try and accurately compare the two trips for the purpose of determining regen percent (at least to my satisfaction). We already know that it can be 0% with coasting in N or in either Eco or D with a full battery. We also know regen will never be close to 100%.

To figure our the parameters for regen on a range calculation beyond my mostly arbitrary 50%, I'm all ears. If your answer is just 80%, then we simply do not agree., and if my opinion, more wrong than a simple 50%.

Again, we have to establish the parameters to calculate it. We can measure with a Gid meter to get baseline data from test runs (they are definitely accuracy issues with this) but the more difficult part is organizing all the variables into a simple format.

PS: Almost forgot, both trips came up with substantially similar data outside the obvious battery capacity and heater issues associated with colder temps.

"We also know regen will never be close to 100%."-BUT RECOVERY OF ASCENT ENERGY CAN BE.

This occurs every time you "coast" downhill, neither using energy, or receiving charge though regen, whether you are in D, N, or ECO.

And the blend of this 100% efficient recovery (nearly-since the LEAF's drivetrain efficiency is probably slightly lower, with the high kW use when climbing) of the potential energy that was stored in the ascent, and the far less efficient regen energy, has been close to 80% (when having a battery charge of 80% or lower) when calculating range, for all road conditions, that I have encountered, as it it also appears to be in the drives you report, using your own range chart as a baseline.

It has never been anywhere close to 50%, for me. Has anyone actually seen ascent energy recovery as determined by range, at that low rate, under any road conditions?

I get much better than that, even when I am at 100% charge, and cannot get any regen.

Would someone else care to intervene here?

I have been bringing up the same subject for months now, and can't think of any further ways to explain my point.
 
TonyWilliams said:
Made my second trip to Julian, after a San Diego county snow storm. It was my Dad's 70th birthday, too, so to offset my green, zero carbon emission trip to Julian, we also flew the Piper Mailbu to Santa Catalina Island for lunch.

I used a bit more power on this trip, and had a bit less usable battery capacity with significantly lower ambient temps. Plus, more weight with 3 people vice just little 'ole me last summer, and my parents appreciated the heater!

Completed the trip with 85 miles at VLB. So, almost 90 miles of range.


Just "little 'ole me"? Tony....you are FUNNY! :lol:
 
It' s been a lot of years---got to ask---Is Dudleys Stone Oven Bakery still in operation--in the 1970's people, me included, would que up outside on Sunday mornings to purchase loaf's of their great breads.

Thanks for the memory trip!
 
"We also know regen will never be close to 100%."-BUT RECOVERY OF ASCENT ENERGY CAN BE.

This occurs every time you "coast" downhill, neither using energy, or receiving charge though regen, whether you are in D, N, or ECO.

I think you're moving into something I do believe in!!!! There's hope!

How about we set up a simple non-GOM or CWP experiment. I have two long descents near my house. Speed, weight, and verticle decent profile seem like likely variables. Anything else? Oh ya, that pesky top of the charge. How do you want to account for that?
 
TonyWilliams said:
How about we set up a simple non-GOM or CWP experiment. I have two long descents near my house. Speed, weight, and verticle decent profile seem like likely variables. Anything else? Oh ya, that pesky top of the charge. How do you want to account for that?

This was one of the first things I did when I got my LEAF late May.

I have repeated it many times since, and got very close to 80%, on many different roads, and posted these results.

"Top of charge" is 100%. This variable exists for all other aspects of range estimation, so I don't understand why you believe that significant to this issue.

The significant variable you missed above is battery/driving temperature.

Driving the same road at the same weight eliminates those variables. Speed, temperature, and driving technique can never be exactly replicated, but by attempting consistency, you can get very useful approximations, from which a "rule of thumb", can be derived.

Each trip will vary from an average, of course. I wouldn't be surprised if, on average, any proportion from 75%-to 85%, might be more accurate, when more information is collected. 50% just does not bear any relationship to reality.

I do not understand why you, and others, do not make these simple observations, and instead prefer to accept a figure, "50%" pulled out of a bodily orifice.
 
the winding roads from poway to julian are a lot fun to drive! i took this trip in an ICE based roadster previously but wanted a small taste of it in the LEAF. i went up scripps poway parkway then onto the 67 to Romana in the LEAF and back - it was a fun drive indeed! while, i didn't feel the connection to the road as i did with the roadster, the LEAF was, nevertheless, responsive and handled well around the winding bits of the roads. 50 miles total with not much juice left ;-); a DC charger in Santa Ysabel will make the julian trip trivial yet fun!
 
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