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Tony: My plan is to go around a 6 Km loop in my neighborhood, covering speeds between 40 and 70 Km/h. It's not really flat but the altitude variation is only 28 m (checked with a GPS while jogging a couple of years ago).

What do you want in terms of climate control use for the baseline? Minimal? Typical? None?

Ricardo
 
rborba said:
Tony: My plan is to go around a 6 Km loop in my neighborhood, covering speeds between 40 and 70 Km/h. It's not really flat but the altitude variation is only 28 m (checked with a GPS while jogging a couple of years ago).

What do you want in terms of climate control use for the baseline? Minimal? Typical? None?

Ricardo

28m doesn't even register on the scale of elevation changes that are more typical in western states/provinces. I'd prefer no heater, but I understand how an hour or two in a -15C car might not be fun.

Just use what you have to, because it should be reflected in the km/kWh readout.

Thanks for accepting the challenge! Maybe you should print out the first post to log the data?
 
TonyWilliams said:
28m doesn't even register on the scale of elevation changes that are more typical in western states/provinces. I'd prefer no heater, but I understand how an hour or two in a -15C car might not be fun.

Just use what you have to, because it should be reflected in the km/kWh readout.

Thanks for accepting the challenge! Maybe you should print out the first post to log the data?

Hey Tony. Here are the results.

120V to 100% Charge at start: --:--
Assumed battery temperature at start: -13C (soaked for 4 hours)
Final Dash Km/kWh: 7.0
Km traveled total: 125.1

Km driven at Low Battery: 15.8 Km
How many fuel bars showing: 1
120V to 100% Charge: 21:00
Temp: -10 C

Km driven at Very Low Battery: 4.4 Km
How many fuel bars showing: 0
120V to 100% Charge: n/a (The "low level" warning covered the charge estimate, should've closed it...)
Temp: -10 C

Km driven at Turtle, if applicable: 50 meters, before pulling over my driveway.

Heater nominal power use:
- Climate control = 0.5 KW average (windshield only, minimal temp, minimal air flow)
- Other systems = 200 W (incl. heated seat, heated steering wheel)

Raw data:

Code:
        Outside Battery         Charge  To 100% Charge
Time    Temp(C) Temp    Km      Bars    240 V   120 V   CC (KW)
12:28   -13     3 bars  0(6657) 12      --:--   --:--
12:29                                                   3
12:29                                                   3.7
12:30                                                   4.6
                        1.1
12:31                                                   4.5
12:32   -12                                             0.75
12:33                                                   0.7
                        4.7
12:35                                                   0.5
                        5.9     11      0:50    2:00
                        6.3     11      1:00
                        7.0                     2:30
                        8.0             1:30    3:00
12:50                                                   0.2
                        9.9                     3:30
                        11.3                    4:00
                        11.4    10      2:00
12:58                                                   0.75
                        13.7                    4:30
12:59   -11
                        16.1                    5:00
                        18.1                    5:30
                        19.8    9
                        21.5            2:30    6:00
                        24.0                    6:30
                        26.9                    7:00
                4 bars  27.1
                        28.9    8
                        29.1                    7:30
                        31.3            3:00    
                        32.4                    8:00
1:26    -10
1:27    -11
                        36.0                    8:30
1:31    -10
                        38.3                    9:00
                        39.2    7
1:34                                                    0.5
                        41.7                    9:30
                        42.4            3:30
                        44.6                    10:00
                        47.1                    11:00
                        49.3    6
                        52.7                    12:00
                        53.3            4:00
1:51                                                    0.75
                        58.7    5
                        59.0                    13:00
                        63.4            4:30
                        64.9                    14:00
                        67.2    4
2:09                                                    0.5
                        70.4                    15:00
                        73.8            5:00
                        75.8    3               16:00
                        81.9                    17:00
                        84.9            5:30
                        86.9    2               18:00
                        92.5                    19:00
                        95.5            6:00
                        98.4                    20:00
                        100.8   1
                        104.2                   21:00
                        104.9   1 Low
3:00                                                    0.75
3:04                                                    0.5
                        120.7   0 ---
                        125.1   Turtle
3:30    -10     4       125.1   Turtle  n/a     n/a     0.5
 
Totally awesome collection and data display. You set the bar high!

Email me:

TonyWilliams
at
LoveMyLEAF
com

with your size, color and shipping address!

Thanks,

Who's next?

PS: maybe you'd like to do it again at a different temp?
 
TonyWilliams said:
Totally awesome collection and data display. You set the bar high!
...
PS: maybe you'd like to do it again at a different temp?

Email sent. Thanks!

I can do it with a different temperature for sure. I should've chosen a faster circuit though. The average speed was too slow (about 40 Km/h) so the test took longer than expected.

Ricardo
 
Assumed battery temperature at start: -13C (8.6F) up to -10C ambient (14F)
Final Dash Km/kWh: 7.0 (4.34 miles/kWh)
Km traveled total: 125.1 (77.56 miles)

Calculated Battery Capacity: 17.87 kWh - 85%

Rule of Thumb validation: 20C to -13C is 33% below 21kWh = 14.07kWh - 67%
70F to 9F is 30.5% below 21kWh = 14.59kWh - 69.5%

Actual loss of capacity due to temperature: 33C / 61F delta equals 15%

Proposed New Rule of Thumb: 1% loss per 2C below 20C (half previous formula)
1% loss per 4F below 70F (half previous formula)


And that folks is exactly what was suggested by our northern Europe LEAF drivers earlier. I hope we can get some more validation data points (free shirt... be the envy of all your friends and neighbors)


Km driven at Low Battery: 15.8 Km (9.8 miles) net to VLB: 11.4 km (7.1 miles) ???????<<----?

Km driven at Very Low Battery: 4.4 Km (2.7 miles)

Ratio LBW to VLB: 38%
 
rborba said:
I can do it with a different temperature for sure. I should've chosen a faster circuit though. The average speed was too slow (about 40 Km/h) so the test took longer than expected.

Ricardo

Could you log into CarWings and tell us what it reports for total kWh burned for this trip?
 
TonyWilliams said:
Could you log into CarWings and tell us what it reports for total kWh burned for this trip?

Sure.

Distance traveled: 127.6 Km
Average Energy Economy: 8.1 km/kWh
Electricity Consumption: 15.7 KWh
Travel time: 3.6h

I'm confused though. The extra 2.5 Km (beyond the 125.1 Km of the test) was a trip to the car wash later that night, where I spent about 15-20 minutes with the heater on while waiting in line. Shouldn't the energy economy have gone worse? It was 7.0 when I looked at the dash right after the test... And I looked again after the car wash and it had gone down to 6.6 Km/KWh.

Ricardo
 
rborba said:
TonyWilliams said:
Could you log into CarWings and tell us what it reports for total kWh burned for this trip?

Sure.

Distance traveled: 127.6 Km
Average Energy Economy: 8.1 km/kWh
Electricity Consumption: 15.7 KWh
Travel time: 3.6h

I'm confused though. The extra 2.5 Km (beyond the 125.1 Km of the test) was a trip to the car wash later that night, where I spent about 15-20 minutes with the heater on while waiting in line. Shouldn't the energy economy have gone worse? It was 7.0 when I looked at the dash right after the test... And I looked again after the car wash and it had gone down to 6.6 Km/KWh.

Ricardo

CarWings needs the newest revision that you obviously don't have. Thanks, but that data is just wacked. Even with the update, the mileage is off 2.5% and miles/kWh is always 0.1 higher than the dash data.

Tony
 
Could someone try one of those magnetic oil pan heaters on the Leaf's battery pack before spring comes?.. I would like to see if it does bring up the battery temperature a noticeable amount.
 
Herm said:
Could someone try one of those magnetic oil pan heaters on the Leaf's battery pack before spring comes?.. I would like to see if it does bring up the battery temperature a noticeable amount.

Except we don't want oil pan temperatures on our LEAF batteries !!!
 
How hot do you think those heaters will bring up 4 quarts of oil?.. about 130° F, compared to 600lbs of batteries.. and also keep an eye on it and see what it does in an hour or two, sheez!
 
Herm said:
How hot do you think those heaters will bring up 4 quarts of oil?.. about 130° F, compared to 600lbs of batteries.. and also keep an eye on it and see what it does in an hour or two, sheez!

So, your suggestion is to expose the thin metal case of the batteries to some temperature close to 130F (and up to 200F) ?

No thanks.

But you're right about 600 pounds of batteries perhaps only warming up to some number less than that.... after damaging the parts of the cells exposed to temperatures well in excess of design.

Oil pan heaters are the perfect combination for warming the battery.... we just need to keep the temps reasonable.
 
TonyWilliams said:
Oil pan heaters are the perfect combination for warming the battery.... we just need to keep the temps reasonable.

The biggest problem with an oil-pan heater is that it applies heat to a small area (couple square inches). What you need is a way to apply heat evenly to the whole surface of the battery box.
 
muus said:
TonyWilliams said:
Oil pan heaters are the perfect combination for warming the battery.... we just need to keep the temps reasonable.

The biggest problem with an oil-pan heater is that it applies heat to a small area (couple square inches). What you need is a way to apply heat evenly to the whole surface of the battery box.

I guess that seemed obvious to me:

Yes, cover most of the metal bottom of the battery. That will require more than the size of a typical "oil pan". You can buy that stuff just about any size you want.

Item two, reduce heat output to 30-40C (80F-100F).

Three, don't put the heaters under electronic controls that we don't want to heat. I'd Use a big U pattern. I'm not worried about damage, just saving a couple bucks on heating pad material. I also probably wouldn't put the material on the bottom support beams.

Finally, run the appropriate size 120v through the motor compartment to the charging port, and label it "120v XXamp Aux Battery Heater".


IMG_0650.jpg




LEAFbatteryHeaters.jpg
 
ok i F'ing DID IT!!!

charge complete 6 pm; 98.5% SOC GID 276.
started trip 5:30 AM 97.8 SOC GID 274 temp 38º

lost BB 12 (battery bar) @ 90% GID 250 4.5 miles
BB11 @ 82.3 % & 233 and 41º
10 @ @77.2 & 217 and 41
9@ 70.1 & 197 and 43
8 @ 62.9 & 178 and 43
7 @ 58 & 163 and 43
6 @ 49.8 & 140 and 43
5 @ 43 & 121 and 43
4 @ 36.2 & 102 and 41º
3 @ 30.2 & 85 and 41
2 @ 21.3 & 60 and 75.5 Miles (all other temps stayed at 41)

LB @17.4 & 49 80.8
VLB @ 8.5 & 24 and 92.7
lost first power circle @ 98.8 miles
turtle @ 2.8 and 8 and 99.3

total trip ONE HUNDRED MILES PLUS!!
 
nope, never touched freeway. it was 7 errands plus work commute. there was 14 miles from yesterday which was commute (11.8 miles) and dash to albertsons for junk food.

the rest of the miles were from today. it was the normal routine. only difference was i put off my usual tuesday stuff for today so a few more trips than normal but all streets and did circle a nearby neighborhood from 93.6 miles until 98.9 then headed home as soon as the power circles started to disappear. temps ran between 39 and 43 º. yesterday the weather was rainy, today beautiful and sunny which allowed me to use minimal defrost and did not get the extra drag from rolling on wet pavement.

i will say the SOC made it easy to be brave since i had never driven that far past VLB before. i ran it down to single digit GID and 2.5 % SOC!
 
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