Brakes problem!!

cwerdna said:

Regarding the above behavior, is it the same as if you push power w/o stepping on the brake? (In the absence of malfunction) When one normally does that, you'd end up in ON mode, where it's normal that all or virtually all warning lights are on [...] The equivalent on Priuses is IG-ON [...]It almost sounds like one problem (of several?) could be a bad brake light switch.

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Except that the green car with the arrows under it means that the car is READY (to use the Prius term). Also that it moved itself is a giveaway clue that this wasn't an accessory mode.

UkrainianKozak said:

Had pretty weird situation 2 days ago when starting up Leaf...
Like usual I pushed brake pedal, pressed a button, and as it was clunking I heard and felt some click in the brake, then I put car in drive (while holding a brake) and the car started moving!! and it kept moving as I was frantically trying to brake harder, and it took considerable amount of force to stop the car...
After I released the brake and pressed again it responded normally.
While I moved probably only a foot or two during that incident, I was kind of scared... But it never happened again, so not sure if Nissan shop will be able to reproduce it...

Anyone had similar experience?

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There were a couple of other reports of almost the same problem:
http://mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Brakes,_ABS#Problems.2Fissues

gbarry42 said:

cwerdna said:

Regarding the above behavior, is it the same as if you push power w/o stepping on the brake? (In the absence of malfunction) When one normally does that, you'd end up in ON mode, where it's normal that all or virtually all warning lights are on [...] The equivalent on Priuses is IG-ON [...]It almost sounds like one problem (of several?) could be a bad brake light switch.

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Except that the green car with the arrows under it means that the car is READY (to use the Prius term). Also that it moved itself is a giveaway clue that this wasn't an accessory mode.

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Ok. Whoops, sorry! (My mom's Altima Hybrid has a light that says READY (just like Toyota hybrids), confirmed it via manual.) The Leaf manual (such as on pages 0-10, 2-19, 5-8) does still refer to it as READY or READY to drive indicator light.

I was referring to ON mode, not ACC.

This has happened to me about 3 times already. Today was the most recent. Just like the other posted experiences. It is quite scary as you feel like you don't have control of the car as it wants to keep moving (not a coasting roll, a pull with energy) when you want it to stop. The brake feels really spongy and goes down really low when it's stepped on with no response. As well as the described ...ICE engine off, and no brake function... it's sorta like the days of old where the ICE car is in high idle, but you don't have time to let it warm and put it in gear to go... the car lurches and wants to go without you stepping on the gas pedal... Then just imagine that you step on the brake and it's spongy and doesn't want to stop. Usually I'm parked in a space that doesn't have alot of room so it's stressful that you might hit something. Also, I'm so concerned about making the brakes work and watching where the car is... I've never looked at the screen or heard the sounds others did... If it happens again, I'll try to observe for those two things.

I don't know when to expect it, so like the grabby brakes, I've been just dealing with it. But whatever the Nissan engineer/mechanic said... it still doesn't seem right. I would not want anyone else I let drive my car to experience that. Maybe the engineer was correct about the part re sitting in the car or leaving the door(s) open. I was parked and waiting for someone at a medical appointment. Some of the time I was in the car, some of the other time I took to shake out the mats with the respective door open. Maybe the other times were after I washed and cleaned the car (individual doors open at various points). Whatever it is, it just doesn't seem right.

I will probably call Nissan CS or a dealership about this since it's been a few times already.

GoingGreener said:

I don't know when to expect it, so like the grabby brakes, I've been just dealing with it. But whatever the Nissan engineer/mechanic said... it still doesn't seem right. I would not want anyone else I let drive my car to experience that.

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I haven't experienced this problem before but the grabby brakes are maddening. I've mentioned it to Nissan CS but didn't really get anywhere/info. I'm tempted to take the car in for the 6 month tire rotation just so I could ask about the grabby brakes and the line noise when charging but I'm not hopeful that much resolution will happen. It's nice hearing that a lot of others are experiencing and documenting their grabby brake issues. I've had one person that was test driving my car have it happen to them, not a pleasant experience.

If the car's frozen, what happens if you press and hold the power button or press it 3 times, rapid fire? Does it shut off? That's the emergency shutoff mentioned on page 5-9.

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I did try this with no response! So much for the emergency shutoff.

It also sounds like a safety complaint filed at http://www.safercar.gov/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; is warranted. Maybe it'd be better once the cause is determined.

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Yes, I am working on writing it up to send.

gbarry42 said:

cwerdna said:

Regarding the above behavior, is it the same as if you push power w/o stepping on the brake? (In the absence of malfunction) When one normally does that, you'd end up in ON mode, where it's normal that all or virtually all warning lights are on [...] The equivalent on Priuses is IG-ON [...]It almost sounds like one problem (of several?) could be a bad brake light switch.

Click to expand...

Except that the green car with the arrows under it means that the car is READY (to use the Prius term). Also that it moved itself is a giveaway clue that this wasn't an accessory mode.

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Yes, the picture I show here is what shows when I am pushing down on the brake with everything I have to keep the car from moving. It is well past the start up sequence.

I had NOT been sitting in the car for a long time and did NOT have the door open.


LowerWarningDisplay by mfrptca, on Flickr

GoingGreener said:

This has happened to me about 3 times already. Today was the most recent. Just like the other posted experiences. It is quite scary as you feel like you don't have control of the car as it wants to keep moving (not a coasting roll, a pull with energy) when you want it to stop. The brake feels really spongy and goes down really low when it's stepped on with no response.

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Hmmm, that's a different behavior than in other previous problem reports. They reported requiring "considerable amount of force" to stop the car. I suppose that "considerable amount of force" would not technicaly preclude "spongy pedal feel", but I took "considerable amount of force" to mean the same feel as, in an ICE car, when the engine is off and there is no brake boost available: the brake pedal feels extra hard and takes a huge amount of pressure to even slow the car at all.

No, the brakes were not hard. There was no resistance and felt like it hits bottom. That's why it definitely doesn't feel right and gives you a panic feel of no control. It wouldn't be so bad except there is this energy from the car wanting to go somewhere when clearly you don't and just want the brake to function.

I've felt the grabby brakes a few times too. That doesn't bother me as we're usually on the go. As long as there's a little distance from the car in front of you and no one is tailgating you, occupants just get jerked a bit. Just a little embarassing to toss your passengers a little, but no fears. We also have a Prius and felt it with that car. So I just chalk grabby brakes up to the nature of newer technology.

I'm not an alarmist and always take issues I read about and experience to mind, but with a grain of salt. I dislike anything negative as I really like our Prius and just as much our LEAF. So that's probably why I haven't voiced anything up to this point and just hope I don't further experience the problem. But for this issue, I think it's important that it be noted by Nissan that this is happening. So if there's enough incidents, they could review, maybe determine the cause and see if any tweaks could correct as necessary. I asked if maybe our car needs an update. The CS person didn't seem to think so.

I told Nissan CS that I didn't want to give up my daily driver just yet! That I'll try to observe more details if it happens again. We agreed I'd call our local dealership and see if other cases have been reported with them and if and when I should bring it in. I'm only at 3,800 miles after 4 mths. I don't think I'll reach 7,500 miles at 6 mths.

The service tech my call was forwarded to at Serramonte Nissan (closest to San Francisco) at around 1:30pm didn't pick up, so I left a voicemail for a return call. I didn't get a call back today. This is our first Nissan car and we didn't purchase it locally. Anyone have a recommendation for a great/pretty good Nissan service dept nearby?

GoingGreener said:

The service tech my call was forwarded to at Serramonte Nissan (closest to San Francisco) at around 1:30pm didn't pick up, so I left a voicemail for a return call. I didn't get a call back today. This is our first Nissan car and we didn't purchase it locally. Anyone have a recommendation for a great/pretty good Nissan service dept nearby?

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I don't follow Nor Cal Nissan service depts that closely since I was away in WA state for >1.5 years and recently sold my Nissan 350Z, but Googling for serramonte nissan site:my350z.com finds a bunch of err... interesting threads.

Falore Nissan in Sunnyvale had a good rep. I used to bring my Z there for warranty work and service, partly because of that and because they were reasonably close to my former work. However, the ownership's changed (no more Falore in the name) I don't know how they are now.

My mom did bring her 07 NAH to Sunnyvale Nissan for an oil change and things went fine. She was happy w/the price too vs. what Premier Nissan on Capitol Expressway wanted (only reason for her to go to Premier is that they're VERY close to where my parents live).

Thanks Cwerdna! I'll keep Sunnyvale Nissan in mind. It might be worth waiting around for some charge to get home if I don't find a better option. A few months ago when I was curious about future maintenance service, I did look at some reviews of Serramonte Nissan as well as other Nissan dealerships nearby . Steven Creeks Nissan didn't seem to get many good reviews, but they were super nice to us when we stopped by for a charge on our way home from SoCal. I will consider them for their graciousness if I'm going the distance anyway. And having a Pho/other yummy food restaurant within walking distance would be a plus .

GoingGreener said:

Thanks Cwerdna! I'll keep Sunnyvale Nissan in mind. It might be worth waiting around for some charge to get home if I don't find a better option. A few months ago when I was curious about future maintenance service, I did look at some reviews of Serramonte Nissan as well as other Nissan dealerships nearby . Steven Creeks Nissan didn't seem to get many good reviews, but they were super nice to us when we stopped by for a charge on our way home from SoCal. I will consider them for their graciousness if I'm going the distance anyway. And having a Pho/other yummy food restaurant within walking distance would be a plus .

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I bot my LEAF at Steven Creeks Nissan so when I got email from them regarding 6-month service I thought I would give them a try. Car had less than 3500 miles so didn't need a tire rotation, which the service guy agreed. When I asked for the complimentary multi inspection he balked and wanted to charge me about 30 bucks (cost of rotation). I asked why and he said they wouldn't do free inpection without some other service. If I didn't like that service he offered me the standard ICE service for about 100$. I left and phoned GM with complaint. Got call back and vague explanation. Took LEAF to Sunnyvale Nissan where they did the inspection and firmware upgrade without even asking for money. Guess where I plan to get my 1 yr battery inspection in a few months?

BTW, there was a long discussion about 6-8 months ago with a LEAF driver trying to charge at Steven Creeks Nissan, and the issues encountered.

Thanks Linkim! Sounds like Sunnyvale gets the votes. I'll touch bases with them. Thanks to OP & Leaf for sharing your experiences.

I finally have my LEAF back and the braking problem has not re-occurred. It looks like NISSAN was able to fix it.

I want to thank Ron Aguiar, service manager at Stockton Nissan for going to bat for me and his perseverence!!

I also want to thank Gary Brand, Senior manager at Nissan for getting right on my problem. Also Joe Castelli, VP at Nissan for getting my request to the right people.

This is what they sent as the explanation of what was happening with my car. It appears to be a problem with the 12 volt battery. This is what Gary Brand sent to me.

The 12V battery is clearly the root cause of the warning light issue as it was unable to maintain minimum voltage. We believe that it is possible that the reported brake complaint could be a symptom of an under-performing 12V battery. The 12V battery was replaced in the car today. The power brake system for the Leaf is powered by the 12V battery. The system needs a little bit of time to initialize. An underperforming 12V battery could cause this initialization to take longer than normal, and hence potentially related to your complaint.

Symptoms of an insufficiently initialized electric power brake system is that the brake pedal stroke is longer, so the brakes definitely feel different and this may cause concern to you. The brake system is fully functional, however. If you typically press very lightly on the brakes (very short stroke) at starting, this difference in brake pedal feel would be noticeable. If the brake pedal is pushed with a little more force, more than enough braking force will be applied, but again it will take more pedal travel than when the brake system is fully initialized.

Replacing this incident 12V battery will assure that enough power is available to properly initialize the brake system at start-up. This should resolve the random occurrence of this brake feeling concern that you have reported.

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^^^
Interesting, if the above diagnosis is correct, that's a bit troubling (to me) when the 12 volt batteries start dying naturally, due to old age/mileage.

Just like on Priuses (and other cars w/Hybrid Synergy Drive), a low 12 volt will not exhibit typical symptoms/warning signs that you'd see on an ICEV like slow starting cranking or inability of the starter to turn the ICE. (Priuses don't exhibit this since the Prius has no dedicated starter motor and the ICE isn't started by the 12 volt.)

But in comparison with a Prius, the Leaf's 12v battery is fairly large and should last longer.

cwerdna said:

^^^
Interesting, if the above diagnosis is correct, that's a bit troubling (to me) when the 12 volt batteries start dying naturally, due to old age/mileage.

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If this behavior is in fact what happens with an "under-performing" 12 volt battery I certainly would expect they'll learn from this and have the car detect the battery it self before any thing else bad can happen. Maybe if we are lucky that could be a software update Might have to be more proactive in replacing the batteries as they age as well.

From the description of the problem you should see some type of brake warning light. To avoid problems you should take your foot off the brake and press a second time before you put it into Drive or Reverse. If the warning lights go off and the brake returns to its normal position you know that the power assist to the brake is powered and then go down and have the battery checked out. Or to be absolutely safe, get the car towed and have it checked out.

I just thought of something else... so for those that are experiencing the problem, does that mean that as a temporary workaround, the 12 volt should be jumped and/or maybe as a means of diagnosis?

For those of you interested, here is a movie of the LEAF dash displays and warning buzzer that was happening at the same time as my braking problem.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85NItEELKBI[/youtube]