"Trickle charging is not recommended for regular use"
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cwerdna
Well-known member
Sorry to bump an ancient thread but "Trickle charging is not recommended for regular use" also caught my attention when skimming thru the manual.
Did anyone ever get more clarity from Nissan as to why? Was it simply just from a customer experience POV of it being slow?
I'm considering a Leaf but might just lease and would rather not spend the expense of getting a L2 EVSE installed at home and might not have a spare 240 volt outlet either (for use w/pEEf's upgraded L1 EVSEs). I know DaveinOlyWA was doing L1 charging exclusively for awhile. I think L1 charging should be sufficient for me since I'd be keeping my Prius.
Did anyone ever get more clarity from Nissan as to why? Was it simply just from a customer experience POV of it being slow?
I'm considering a Leaf but might just lease and would rather not spend the expense of getting a L2 EVSE installed at home and might not have a spare 240 volt outlet either (for use w/pEEf's upgraded L1 EVSEs). I know DaveinOlyWA was doing L1 charging exclusively for awhile. I think L1 charging should be sufficient for me since I'd be keeping my Prius.
charlie1300
Well-known member
I"m unaware of any new facts that have been presented by Nissan for why "trickle charging is not recommended for regular use".
I had intended to only use the supplied L1 EVSE, but now that I can get it upgraded by Phil, I'll put in a 220 circuit and that's my plan.
From Info posted here by people who know more than I do about batteries, it seems clear that there is no difference between L1 and L2 on battery life.
You will need to provide proper support for the L1 EVSE at the outlet.
I had intended to only use the supplied L1 EVSE, but now that I can get it upgraded by Phil, I'll put in a 220 circuit and that's my plan.
From Info posted here by people who know more than I do about batteries, it seems clear that there is no difference between L1 and L2 on battery life.
You will need to provide proper support for the L1 EVSE at the outlet.
TomT
Well-known member
I believe that Nissan worded it poorly and did not mean that it is harmful to the battery but simply that it takes too long to be practical for many users.
charlie1300 said:
thankyouOB
Well-known member
mogur said:
agree, fully.
planet4ever
Well-known member
There is some evidence, including from DaveinOlyWA, that 120v charging is significantly less efficient than 240v charging. I think that may be why Nissan does not encourage it. Specifically, Dave was reporting that only 75% of the power he measured at the wall using a Kill-A-Watt appeared to be getting to the battery, while others have reported between 85% and 90% at 240v using TED measurements.
As a further confirmation of this, note that the Owner's Manual shows "trickle" charging as taking three times as long from low battery to full as does "normal" charging. But 12 amps * 120v = 1440 watts while 16 amps * 240v = 3840 watts. 3840/1440 = 2.67 so it should not take three times as long to charge if they were equally efficient. In fact it should take less than 2.67 times as long, since there is less need to taper the charge as the battery gets full when charging at a lower amperage and wattage.
Ray
As a further confirmation of this, note that the Owner's Manual shows "trickle" charging as taking three times as long from low battery to full as does "normal" charging. But 12 amps * 120v = 1440 watts while 16 amps * 240v = 3840 watts. 3840/1440 = 2.67 so it should not take three times as long to charge if they were equally efficient. In fact it should take less than 2.67 times as long, since there is less need to taper the charge as the battery gets full when charging at a lower amperage and wattage.
Ray
smkettner
Well-known member
L1 does have limitations. This weekend I have been charging or driving near continuous.thankyouOB said:
gbarry42
Well-known member
Charging at L1 may "take too long". But this isn't bad for the car.
Charging at L1 may waste more power than L2. But this isn't bad for the car.
I kind of latched onto the notion that "topping it off" every night when it's not being driven is the kind of "trickle charging" that might be bad for the car. But even that doesn't seem like a big deal. I did this one night just to test my L1 (I had never used it), and the car went 5 minutes and then stopped it.
I would like to hear from Paul Scott, though, regarding
Charging at L1 may waste more power than L2. But this isn't bad for the car.
I kind of latched onto the notion that "topping it off" every night when it's not being driven is the kind of "trickle charging" that might be bad for the car. But even that doesn't seem like a big deal. I did this one night just to test my L1 (I had never used it), and the car went 5 minutes and then stopped it.
I would like to hear from Paul Scott, though, regarding
...now that it's 6 months later.
LEAFfan
Well-known member
gbarry42 said:
If he has relatively flat streets and keeps it around 38mph, he will have no trouble hitting 120 miles or more. I can get over 100 miles (6.3 x 16) on an 80% charge if I drive all city streets, so I'm sure 120 would be no problem with 100%. Driving on the city streets, I've reached 6.8m/kwh. That would be over 140 miles (6.8 x 21) at 100% charge.
LEAFfan
Well-known member
drees said:
That's from the dash. CarWings (website) was a ridiculous 8.2.
Was there ever a definite conclusion to this thread? Nissan is scolding me for using L1 only and saying it is causing "problems". I retorted and asked why and have gotten no response other than "L1 is for emergency purposes only" so I would like something to come back at them with.
TomT
Well-known member
Have them show you anywhere where it says that in writing from Nissan. They won't be able to because it is not true. The only negative thing that Nissan has to say about L1 charging at all is that it is slower and less efficient than L2. It does not cause any "problems" of any kind.
I think it is simply a poor Japanese translation and that "emergency" refers to the time that it takes to charge on 120, which may be too long for some and their usage needs...
I think it is simply a poor Japanese translation and that "emergency" refers to the time that it takes to charge on 120, which may be too long for some and their usage needs...
tzzhc4 said:
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
i have charged on L1 for about 5600 of the 6200+ miles driven in my Leaf. i have seen no ill effects as of yet. guess it will be a while for any long term effects
or maybe my battery check will yield unusual degradation but i kinda highly doubt it.
or maybe my battery check will yield unusual degradation but i kinda highly doubt it.
cwerdna
Well-known member
I also wonder. I'm a prospective buyer and don't plan on getting a home EVSE installed (long story). L1 charging will suffice for me (yes, I know it's very slow). If I end up buying, I wonder if I'll also get a "scolding". Hope Nissan's willing to elaborate on the "problems".mogur said:
FWIW, in Japan, their power is only 100 volts out of the wall (http://www.jnto.go.jp/eng/arrange/essential/electricity.html). Not sure of the amperage of typical 100 volt outlets household outlets there...
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
cwerdna said:
dont worry about it. i did it. charged at 120 for 5 months. but Phil's EVSE mod is definitely the way to roll. cost $250 for that. another $50 for monitoring equipment and $23 for misc electrical and i have a setup that puts back 80+ miles of charge in less than 7 hours.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/blog.php?u=291&b=92
So I went to the dealer today to get my car and the dealer told me again that "you are not supposed to be using the charger that came with the car as your primary charging you are supposed to have a thing on your wall". I told them this wasn't what I was told by the dealer I purchased the car from and Nissan doesn't specifically say you can't use L1 charging. The dealer then reiterated their position on how I should have a wall charger and how plug charging causes problems. The service manager then said Nissan is to flying a technician out to look at my car sometime so could I bring it back next week, please.
Does anyone have any information from Nissan saying L1 charging all the time is allowed? I am just worried they are going to point at the manual and say see it says you aren't supposed to use it as your primary means.
Does anyone have any information from Nissan saying L1 charging all the time is allowed? I am just worried they are going to point at the manual and say see it says you aren't supposed to use it as your primary means.
My wife suggested I try the Leaf Support site and here is what they say. Boils down to L1 charging is slower and Nissan doesn't want people to get stuck, no harm is caused and they are going to talk to the dealer and make sure they understand.
Please wait while we find an agent to assist you...
You have been connected to paul s.
paul s: Thank you for contacting Nissan LEAF Customer Support, my name is paul s. How may I help you today John?
John Simon: I was wondering if using L1 charging for normal charging was allowed.
paul s: Okay, John... that is actually a great question!
paul s: The Leaf Owner's manual does not recommend using the "trickle" charge as your sole means of charging, however...
paul s: The reason for this is not due to any potential harm to your Nissan Leaf..
John Simon: what is the reason?
paul s: Essentially, due to the signifcantly greater time required to charge, Nissan does recommend relying on trickle charge alone..
paul s: However, there is less heat involved in the trickle charge...
John Simon: The reason I ask is I have a Nissan Leaf and I took it in for service and the dealer is telling me I should not be using L1 charging as it is for emergencies and they are saying I am harming my car
paul s: So, can you tell me which dealership you are using for your Leaf servicing?
John Simon: Nissan of McKinney
paul s: Excellent! I can get in touch with the EV specialist at that location and give them a more practical perspective on the situation...
John Simon: thank you
paul s: In short, many customers are driving 50 or 60 miles a day and at that rate, they would not be able to fully re-charge by mid-week... leaving them in a bind to be able to use their Leaf..
John Simon: That makes sense from a range perspective but I typically don't drive that much so L1 meets my needs now. If I do start driving or my power company offers time of use I would switch to L2
John Simon: I mean driving greater distance
paul s: For the smaller percentage of customers who may only drive ten miles a day, there is no reason that they cannot recharge at the end of every week and never be in a position to use the vehicle
John Simon: cool, this answers my questions. I appreciate the information and thank you for contacting the EV specialist at my dealer
Please wait while we find an agent to assist you...
You have been connected to paul s.
paul s: Thank you for contacting Nissan LEAF Customer Support, my name is paul s. How may I help you today John?
John Simon: I was wondering if using L1 charging for normal charging was allowed.
paul s: Okay, John... that is actually a great question!
paul s: The Leaf Owner's manual does not recommend using the "trickle" charge as your sole means of charging, however...
paul s: The reason for this is not due to any potential harm to your Nissan Leaf..
John Simon: what is the reason?
paul s: Essentially, due to the signifcantly greater time required to charge, Nissan does recommend relying on trickle charge alone..
paul s: However, there is less heat involved in the trickle charge...
John Simon: The reason I ask is I have a Nissan Leaf and I took it in for service and the dealer is telling me I should not be using L1 charging as it is for emergencies and they are saying I am harming my car
paul s: So, can you tell me which dealership you are using for your Leaf servicing?
John Simon: Nissan of McKinney
paul s: Excellent! I can get in touch with the EV specialist at that location and give them a more practical perspective on the situation...
John Simon: thank you
paul s: In short, many customers are driving 50 or 60 miles a day and at that rate, they would not be able to fully re-charge by mid-week... leaving them in a bind to be able to use their Leaf..
John Simon: That makes sense from a range perspective but I typically don't drive that much so L1 meets my needs now. If I do start driving or my power company offers time of use I would switch to L2
John Simon: I mean driving greater distance
paul s: For the smaller percentage of customers who may only drive ten miles a day, there is no reason that they cannot recharge at the end of every week and never be in a position to use the vehicle
John Simon: cool, this answers my questions. I appreciate the information and thank you for contacting the EV specialist at my dealer
smkettner
Well-known member
I told Nissan I was getting a Leviton. End of story.
Don't make waves or prove a point.... just get the car and get on with your gasoline free life.
Don't make waves or prove a point.... just get the car and get on with your gasoline free life.
smkettner said:
I told the dealer (a different dealer) when I bought the Leaf that I was going to just use L1 until more chargers were on the market and the price dropped because the AV was crazy expensive. They said that was fine and they had heard others were doing the same. I assumed it was end of story until I got an EV System Warning code and took it to a a different dealer that was closer (this was my mistake I should have gone to the dealer I bought from since I bought from). The other dealer was trying to say the L1 charger was only for emergencies and shouldn't be used. So it wasn't so much to prove a point but to set things straight and get the story from Nissan.
That said I love my Leaf. It is a great car and it is great to be off gas and not filtering WVO
