Questions About the 30 kWh battery firmware update

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LarryKaplan

Active member
Joined
Sep 14, 2019
Messages
35
I have a refurbished 30 installed aftermarket in a 2012 – it runs fine but I’ve been hearing about the firmware update for that battery. Someone told me that a firmware update would not work on my car. The reason is that the firmware resides in both the battery pack and the car's computer, and the diagnostic equipment would recognize a conflict between the battery and car VIN’s, and therefore find them incompatible.

I called several Nissan dealers located nearby me in Los Angeles -- 2 said they would NOT work on the car for the reason above, but 2 said they could do it – 3 to 4 hours @ $175/hr.

So the 64 dollar question is this: who is right? The 2 dealers who say that because of the aftermarket installation (specifically incompatibility with the software in the car and battery), a firmware update will not work. Or the 2 dealers who say that it can be done for $500? That's an expensive gamble.

And bottom line: will it make any difference in terms of range, longevity or performance?
 
Can't speak to whether it'd work but the docs related to the update on supported cars (cars that shipped w/30 kWh batteries are below:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10143139-9999.pdf
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10143483-9999.pdf
 
I say that if you are not seeing capacity bars dropping quickly, don't worry about the update. It only changes the way the BMS measures capacity, so if you aren't losing capacity at a fast rate, it isn't needed in your case.
 
cwerdna said:
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10143483-9999.pdf
Also notice how many hours they're allowed to claim on the last page of the above. 3+ hours sounds like they're trying to line their pockets.
 
I agree that unless it's causing a problem why bother? On my 2017 S the SOH went up significantly after the firmware update but I doubt the range increased at all. My SOH had also dropped to 92% after 6 months so my car was obviously affected by whatever the bug was. For reference, my SOH was 92.65% a week or so ago, 4 years after the firmware update.

I don't know much about battery management systems but everything I've read says that when the battery runs down the BMS uses cell voltage to manage the system. Cell voltage values could be affected by firmware but I'd say it's quite unlikely that such a simple calculation would be wrong in the first place. My guess is that only the SOH (and bars) is affected by the firmware update and that shouldn't make any difference unless you're trying to sell the car or something.

What is your range? If you get 100ish miles on a full charge with mixed use driving I'd say that's pretty normal for a 30kWh Leaf. High speeds or lots of AC/heat use will drop that range.
 
An update: I took the car to Alhambra, CA Nissan – they seemed to be quite knowledgeable (a couple of dealer service departments I called told me they would not work on the car because of the aftermarket replacement).

Anyway, they said that they, too, could not get the firmware/software update to work because the battery VIN doesn’t match the car VIN. However, they checked the battery out independently and ran a complete diagnostic on the car’s electronics.

The battery is in great shape, they said – 82% left in it. No quick charges in its history and very few 100% charges. So it should certainly hang in there for a few years.

They charged me for 1 hour of diagnostic time ($175 -- yeah, this is LA!)
 
LeftieBiker said:
I say that if you are not seeing capacity bars dropping quickly, don't worry about the update. It only changes the way the BMS measures capacity, so if you aren't losing capacity at a fast rate, it isn't needed in your case.

And 'losing' capacity is not real, it is just displaying wrong. Nissan had to fix it because the warranty is based on displayed capacity bars but OP should really not care.

It MAY be that a wrong capacity bar reading also means a wrong SoC display. But that is also easily dealt with by using LeafSpy since the voltage readings are available.
 
SageBrush said:
LeftieBiker said:
I say that if you are not seeing capacity bars dropping quickly, don't worry about the update. It only changes the way the BMS measures capacity, so if you aren't losing capacity at a fast rate, it isn't needed in your case.

And 'losing' capacity is not real, it is just displaying wrong. Nissan had to fix it because the warranty is based on displayed capacity bars but OP should really not care.

It MAY be that a wrong capacity bar reading also means a wrong SoC display. But that is also easily dealt with by using LeafSpy since the voltage readings are available.

(Bolded by me.) There are two different issues with the 30kwh pack: some have a BMS programming glitch that does what you say: display the remaining capacity incorrectly. However, many of the 30kwh packs actually do lose capacity quickly. Nissan isn't going to the trouble to install new 40kwh packs in some of these cars because of a BMS error. I don't know if it's a QC issue or what, but some 30kwh Leaf packs behave like Lizard - or at least 'Wolf' - packs, while others degrade very quickly like the original 'Canary' packs. Thus my recommendation that people who want a 30kwh Leaf look for one that had had the BMS update at least several months in the past, and that still have 11-12 capacity bars showing. This is necessary to avoid getting one with a fast-degrading battery.
 
LeftieBiker said:
However, many of the 30kwh packs actually do lose capacity quickly. Nissan isn't going to the trouble to install new 40kwh packs in some of these cars because of a BMS error. I don't know if it's a QC issue or what, but some 30kwh Leaf packs behave like Lizard - or at least 'Wolf' - packs, while others degrade very quickly like the original 'Canary' packs. Thus my recommendation that people who want a 30kwh Leaf look for one that had had the BMS update at least several months in the past, and that still have 11-12 capacity bars showing. This is necessary to avoid getting one with a fast-degrading battery.
Sure, but not relevant to the OP.
 
It's relevant to everyone not to give incorrect info. All that the OP needs to know is that he has a good pack, and doesn't need the BMS update. Someone else reading the thread might decide from your post that all 30kwh batteries are fine, and that some just need a BMS update. What people need to know is that the 30kwh batteries are a real crapshoot, with both very good ones and very bad ones out there...
 
Did the person who installed the 30 kWh pack in your 2012 install a CANBUS bridge? I would expect they must have.

If so, you could check with Muxsan to see how they handle the 30 kWh translations, as they may already correct for the 30 kWh BMS fix in the CANBUS bridge's firmware.
 
I have no idea if the guy who installed the battery included a CANBUS bridge. However, the dealer did install a couple of "grounding plates" they said were missing. As for the battery state of health, the dealer ran a complete diagnostic (I have a printout) and it showed the state of health as 82%, no quick-charges in its history. All I know is the battery came out of a 2016 salvage and was reconditioned. Anyway, I hope I got one of the "good" 30's!
 
LarryKaplan said:
I have no idea if the guy who installed the battery included a CANBUS bridge.
So far as any of us know, a CANBUS bridge has to be installed to circumvent the Nissan pack to car matching.
If I am not mistaken, there are a couple of CANBUS hacks offered for these pack swaps so ask your installer which one was used and contact the seller with your questions (presuming you still care about the answers.)

One thing is pretty certain: Nissan and its dealerships are not going to be helpful to you when any question/problem of battery pack, BMS, or associated circuity comes up. You are mostly on your own, unless the installer or CANBUS bridge developer is willing to get involved. This is one of the risks you take when you circumvent Nissan.
 
The battery was installed 3 months ago, in early August.

So if you all say a CANBUS bridge was needed, or some kind of hack done, I'll trust you on that. The battery works and doubled my range, so whatever he did seems to have worked. And frankly, I'm not sure I really care at this point as long as I'm happy with the result. Nor would I expect the installer (Ace Hybrid Group in Orange County) to give me all the excruciating details. BTW, most of his business is in rebuilding hybrid vehicle packs, not BEV's.

Yes, I have found Nissan dealers to be generally indifferent about Leafs, although this one in Alhambra CA (a suburb about 5 miles outside of downtown LA near Pasadena) was quite helpful. That part of LA is somewhat affluent and there are a lot of EV's, and this dealer knows that (down the block is the largest Tesla dealership I have ever seen). He ran a diagnostic on the battery itself and on the car software itself and found everything to be good. He said he could not "find" a software update to install ("we ran the code and nothing came up"), which I assume has something to do with the fact that the battery did not match the car.

Whatever. It all works and that's all I care about. This will last me a few years, at which time I would expect that the next generation of EV's will be on the used car market. Thanks all!
 
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