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ABG:EV charging is not cost competitive at retail stations, says Phillips 66

Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:53 pm

https://www.autoblog.com/2021/03/07/ev- ... illips-66/

Electric vehicle charging in retail stations is “not a runaway bestseller” for Phillips 66 because charging is slower and “awfully expensive” compared with the cost of charging at home, the U.S. refiner’s chief economist Horace Hobbs said at an energy conference this week.

Less than 2% of the refiner’s 7,000 retail locations in the United States and Europe have electric vehicle charging capability. . . .

Phillips has to ask consumers to pay a higher price for electricity at their public stations than what customers would pay charging their cars at home, Hobbs said on a downstream energy panel at IHS Markit’s CERAWeek virtually-held conference.

“There’s not a fleet out there today to keep the chargers running at a rate that would support economically putting it in more of the facilities,” Hobbs said.

The refiner has had the most success with electric charging in European urban areas where parking is more expensive, and customers use charging stations as parking.

While Phillips 66 expects electric vehicle penetration to grow in the United States in the near future, most users will likely charge their cars at their homes, Hobbs said. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

alozzy
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Re: ABG:EV charging is not cost competitive at retail stations, says Phillips 66

Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:04 am

Translation:

We've been making obscene profits selling gasoline for decades, thanks to collusion and oligopoly.

So, unless we gouge consumers when providing DC fast charging, our stock holders won't be happy. It's also really crappy that consumers will have the choice to charge at home - it's unfair that our industry should have to face competition of any kind.

So, instead we'll pretend to accept green initiatives and meanwhile we'll lobby politicians and litigate like crazy to try to stop the proliferation of EV public charging and EVs in general.


Seeking opinions from oil executives about EVs is like asking an executioner what his stance is on capital punishment.
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Nubo
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Re: ABG:EV charging is not cost competitive at retail stations, says Phillips 66

Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:21 am

As the late Jack Rickard liked to point out, gas stations don't make their money selling gasoline, but on "Big Gulps, Slim Jims and Funyuns".

Those sales are to people who are only onsite for maybe 10 minutes. With an EV customer you've got a captive audience for maybe 30 minutes or more. If you can't capitalize on that maybe it's due to lack of imagination.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

knightmb
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Re: ABG:EV charging is not cost competitive at retail stations, says Phillips 66

Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:31 am

LOL, that made my morning! :lol: :lol: :lol:
alozzy wrote:
Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:04 am
Translation:

We've been making obscene profits selling gasoline for decades, thanks to collusion and oligopoly.

So, unless we gouge consumers when providing DC fast charging, our stock holders won't be happy. It's also really crappy that consumers will have the choice to charge at home - it's unfair that our industry should have to face competition of any kind.

So, instead we'll pretend to accept green initiatives and meanwhile we'll lobby politicians and litigate like crazy to try to stop the proliferation of EV public charging and EVs in general.


Seeking opinions from oil executives about EVs is like asking an executioner what his stance is on capital punishment.
2020 Leaf SL Plus - (Manufacture Date March 2020)
2013 Leaf SV (8 faithful years of service before trade in at 75,679 miles)

danrjones
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Re: ABG:EV charging is not cost competitive at retail stations, says Phillips 66

Mon Mar 08, 2021 8:47 am

On one of the YouTube channels I follow they raised an interesting point, (so did Nubo above) which is the fact that most gas stations do NOT make their money on gas. It is on snacks and drinks and hot dogs and prostitution (Nevada only).

So why does everyone seem to expect a charging network to be able to make money on charging?

While having these charging stations at rest stops and such is great for the driver, it does make it an issue for the charging company to try and make money. Because what else can they sell there?

On the other hand, if a store like sprouts (Amazon?) installs chargers at their stores, they can recoup some of that cost by you spending money in their store.
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dmacarthur
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Re: ABG:EV charging is not cost competitive at retail stations, says Phillips 66

Mon Mar 08, 2021 9:35 am

It does seem that Nevada has an advantage here: EVs charging and taking 45 minutes or so..... Hard to nurse a coffee that long!
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GRA
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Re: ABG:EV charging is not cost competitive at retail stations, says Phillips 66

Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:17 pm

The gas station business model doesn't work for BEVs due to their long dwell time in a space-constrained business which requires rapid turnover. Should SSBs or some other battery tech allow charging times of <=10 minutes, that will no longer be the case.

Charging times of 20 minutes or so could justify QCs at fast food restaurants. At the moment, you require a sit-down restaurant length stop to justify QC, but putting in enough chargers to handle the potential demand during surge periods would be very expensive.

On top of that, we also need cheap storage to eliminate or at least reduce demand charges, or QCing will remain more expensive than gas.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

johnlocke
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Re: ABG:EV charging is not cost competitive at retail stations, says Phillips 66

Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:57 am

First off, Quick Charging is a convenience not a necessity. It's always going to cost more than charging at home. Your typical 7-11 has enough parking for 3-4 charging stations plus plus space for non-ev customers. The bigger problem is demand charges from the local electric company. To solve that you need battery storage on site. Phillips may be complaining about those costs and you have to remember that they don't make money from the food sales, that's the franchisee's cut. A better fit would be at fast food joints. Plenty of parking, captive audience for 20-30 minutes, and a slight profit from the charging stations. Just imagine a couple of charging stations at every McDonald's, Wendy's and Taco Bell. Stand alone gas stations are already obsolete and sales of gasoline could end up more like sales of LP gas to people with rv's and barbeque grills.
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knightmb
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Re: ABG:EV charging is not cost competitive at retail stations, says Phillips 66

Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:10 am

It's easy for Phillips 66 to complain but not long ago in the previous century, you didn't have gas stations everywhere either. The very first ones were just "filling stations" with nothing but a small shed and some pumps. Over the years it has morphed of course into food, restaurants, vehicle service, etc. because that was a business model that worked for people that ran them. I don't see the Phillips 66 complaints as an apples to apples comparison since the business model of "what do you put with a QC station" is still evolving today. Maybe someone should build a VR gaming business next to a QC station or perhaps put a hotdog stands around all QC stations, you never know what people will stick with. I think trying to peg the gas station business model to a QC station model is trying to recycle something familiar into something different all together. :?
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GRA
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Re: ABG:EV charging is not cost competitive at retail stations, says Phillips 66

Thu Mar 11, 2021 5:13 pm

knightmb wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:10 am
It's easy for Phillips 66 to complain but not long ago in the previous century, you didn't have gas stations everywhere either. The very first ones were just "filling stations" with nothing but a small shed and some pumps. Over the years it has morphed of course into food, restaurants, vehicle service, etc. because that was a business model that worked for people that ran them. I don't see the Phillips 66 complaints as an apples to apples comparison since the business model of "what do you put with a QC station" is still evolving today. Maybe someone should build a VR gaming business next to a QC station or perhaps put a hotdog stands around all QC stations, you never know what people will stick with. I think trying to peg the gas station business model to a QC station model is trying to recycle something familiar into something different all together. :?

The problem is that the operational demand for rapid 'refueling,' i.e. energy replenishment, hasn't changed. The time, convenience and flexibility advantages remain a huge advantage, so while John Locke's statement that QC is "a convenience not a necessity" is true in the abstract, it's critical in the real world, especially when you're trying to replace a technology that has rapid replenishment with one that only offers much slower replenishment, when customers are used to and will demand the former.

I want the fastest charging I can get on trips. On a typical 'weekend' trip last November in a Bolt, what would normally have taken about 4 hours one-way including a stop for gas instead took 6.5, owing mostly to the Bolt's slow QC. Part of the issue was the lack of QC sites where they'd do the most good given the Bolt's limited range compared to a typical ICE, and a little bit to driving slower than normal just to reach the next charging site, but the rest was the 50kW max. and steadily reducing charge rate. That these charging stops forced me to spend extended time in places I had no desire to spend even a minute was adding insult to injury.

As QC stations proliferate some of these issues will be reduced, but the fastest possible charging will always be considered an advantage in convenience and flexibility, which is why we've seen a steady increase in charge rates. If such charging remains more expensive than the alternative, there's little incentive for non-ideological customers to switch to BEVs.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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