gmcjetpilot
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:45 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Oct 2017
Leaf Number: 305601

Lost Another Bar (10 bars) HELP analyze LeafSpy Results

Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:45 am

:cry: 10 Bars now... Well 6 yr old 2015 LEAF SV with 32K mi, no surprise. Get 80 mi indicated on guess-O-meter at 100% charge, BUT I'd like your comments on my LeafSpy results. How bad is it? :cry: From top to bottom LeafSpy results.
Bat Stats:

AHr = 48.39
SOH = 78.93%
369.79V
He = 58.80%
OD 31,599 miles
QC = 39 (charges)
L1/L2 = 1451 (charges)
11 mV

Min/Avg/Max 3.847 / 3.851 / 3.858 11 mV
12.97V
Temp F = 50.1 49.2 49.4 (0.9)
SOC = 32.7%

V0.45.119 en

On the summary (what does this mean)
Gids = 58
AHr = 15.82

Questions?
Is 11mV delta between cells - nominal?

Should I check LeafSpy at SOC of 100%, right after charge, right after driving?

Is my v0.45.119 Leaf Spy Pro the latest and how do I upgrade. I bought it about 3 yrs ago...

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6266
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Lost Another Bar (10 bars) HELP analyze LeafSpy Results

Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:33 am

gmcjetpilot wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:45 am
I'd like your comments on my LeafSpy results.
I'm not surprised by the degradation in your hot-ish climate. You are the poster child for why I tell newbs to the forum to plan for 4-5% range loss a year for these 24 and 30 kWh packs unless they live in a cool climate. The 62 kWh packs are showing anecdotal evidence of a slower degradation that I hope continues to be true but I won't accept it as generally true until we have 2-3 years and 100-200 cars of data.

Good/Bad
Is the car still useful to you ? That would be *good*
Will it remain so for 5 more years ? That would be *really good*

Is it worth *good* money on the resale market ? No
Does it matter ? It depends how much you paid for the car.

Good News
I'll guess you are one of the select group that has a reasonable chance of installing a replacement pack at reasonable cost one of these days.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

gmcjetpilot
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:45 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Oct 2017
Leaf Number: 305601

Re: Lost Another Bar (10 bars) HELP analyze LeafSpy Results

Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:15 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 10:33 am
gmcjetpilot wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:45 am
I'd like your comments on my LeafSpy results.
I'm not surpr
You are the poster child for why I tell newbs to the forum to plan for 4-5% range loss a year for these 24 and 30 kWh packs unless they live in a cool climate...
Poster child.... newbie" ? That is condesending. I'm not surprised either, and said so. I'm aware high ambient Temp climates are worse for battery life. As far as 4%-5% that may very will a good rule of thumb, but it's not a given. It definitely isn't linear. Some lose much more, others far less. Using 4% I'll have 65 mi range in 5 years. Range in 10 years from now range would be 50 miles, That would be the arbitrary min useful for me.

Your new cheap replacement battery comment I give zero confidenc. I've been hearing about it for years. Prices have gone up, and promised breakthrough or new companies promising a cheap replacement are vapor-ware at least so far. The best path is to look for a salvage 40 KwHr LEAF, and do a conversion. I've got notifications for salvaged LEAF. Never have seen one.

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6266
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Lost Another Bar (10 bars) HELP analyze LeafSpy Results

Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:25 pm

gmcjetpilot wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 7:15 pm
The best path is to look for a salvage 40 KwHr LEAF, and do a conversion.
That was my comment's meaning, although I gather from the forum that the TN LEAF plant has in the past sold inexpensive batteries to local customers.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2956
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Lost Another Bar (10 bars) HELP analyze LeafSpy Results

Wed Feb 03, 2021 8:05 pm

My answers are in bold near each set of numbers:
gmcjetpilot wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:45 am
:cry: 10 Bars now... Well 6 yr old 2015 LEAF SV with 32K mi, no surprise. Get 80 mi indicated on guess-O-meter at 100% charge, BUT I'd like your comments on my LeafSpy results. How bad is it? :cry: From top to bottom LeafSpy results.
Bat Stats:

AHr = 48.39
SOH = 78.93%
369.79V
He = 58.80%
OD 31,599 miles
QC = 39 (charges)
L1/L2 = 1451 (charges)
11 mV
These readings are at relatively low SOC and 11 mV is good.
Min/Avg/Max 3.847 / 3.851 / 3.858 11 mV
12.97V
Temp F = 50.1 49.2 49.4 (0.9)
SOC = 32.7%

V0.45.119 en

On the summary (what does this mean)
Gids = 58
AHr = 15.82
These readings are showing present SOC (state of charge). The first low battery warning (LBW) happens at 49 Gids so you probably had about 3 miles left before getting the LBW. Very low battery warning happens at 24 Gids. 15.82 is the remaining SOC shown as AHr.
Questions?
Is 11mV delta between cells - nominal?
It is a good number for the present SOC. The voltage difference between cell pairs will increase as the battery is deeply discharged and will typically be minimum near full charge.
Should I check LeafSpy at SOC of 100%, right after charge, right after driving?
Yes, it will give you an idea of how much difference there is in cell voltage at different SOC levels.
Is my v0.45.119 Leaf Spy Pro the latest and how do I upgrade. I bought it about 3 yrs ago...
There is a newer version. You can get the update by going to Play Store with your Android device (must be connected to the internet). Open Play Store, touch the 3 bars to open the drop down menu, and then touch "My apps and games". Play Store will show available updates--scroll down until you see Leaf Spy Pro and then touch the update button.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

User avatar
Stanton
Posts: 2354
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 10:56 am
Delivery Date: 01 Sep 2011
Leaf Number: 7458
Location: Plano, TX
Contact: Website Twitter

Re: Lost Another Bar (10 bars) HELP analyze LeafSpy Results

Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:16 am

My comments mirror @GerryAZ, and your results track very closely to my (lizard) battery replacement that is down to 10 bars going on 6 years old, although your miles are a bit less. This pack has done much better than my first pack (I met the 4BL warranty replacement @4 years), and I am also thinking 40 kWh replacement/upgrade (salvage) pack within the next couple of years. You might want to put your location in your profile, as it really does matter with battery discussions
2011 Blue Ocean SV
12v LiFePO4 battery w/Antigravity Battery Tracker
FIAMM 74100 horns/Wet Okole seat covers/Tor's low-power heater mod/Dala's CAN-bridge
Lizard Pack (Rev E) installed @51 months/41k miles
40 kWh Pack (Gen2) installed @115 months/85k miles

User avatar
jlv
Moderator
Posts: 1687
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2014
Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Lost Another Bar (10 bars) HELP analyze LeafSpy Results

Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:26 am

gmcjetpilot wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:45 am
Get 80 mi indicated on guess-O-meter at 100% charge, BUT I'd like your comments on my LeafSpy results.
The value on the GOM is worthless. Don't try to drive this car 80 miles -- you'll never make it. I suspect your real world, non-HVAC range is close to 50-55 miles, but only if you are driving sedately with an average efficiency of at least 4mi/kWh.

Since you have LeafSpyPro, you should be using it for your range estimate. On the summary page (where it shows Gids remaining) it will show the computed kWh remaining from that number of Gids. On the lower right (IIRC) it will allow you to input your current efficiency and thus show you a real estimate of your remaining range. Use that.
ICE free since '18 / 100K+ 100% BEV miles since '14
LEAF '13 SL (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17, sold 11/18, 34K mi, AHr 58, SOH 87%)
Tesla S 75D (3/17, 46K mi)
Tesla X 100D (12/18, 26K mi)
8.9kW Solar PV and 2x Powerwall

gmcjetpilot
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:45 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Oct 2017
Leaf Number: 305601

Re: Lost Another Bar (10 bars) HELP analyze LeafSpy Results

Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:12 pm

jlv wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:26 am
gmcjetpilot wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:45 am
Get 80 mi indicated on guess-O-meter at 100% charge, BUT I'd like your comments on my LeafSpy results.
The value on the GOM is worthless. Don't try to drive this car 80 miles -- you'll never make it. I suspect your real world, non-HVAC range is close to 50-55 miles, but only if you are driving sedately with an average efficiency of at least 4mi/kWh.

Since you have LeafSpyPro, you should be using it for your range estimate. On the summary page (where it shows Gids remaining) it will show the computed kWh remaining from that number of Gids. On the lower right (IIRC) it will allow you to input your current efficiency and thus show you a real estimate of your remaining range. Use that.
Thanks. I know most of this, but the Grids comment is appreciated.... I am pretty excellent at range and charging strategy which I have honed over the last 3 years. I'll add a few things....

I hoped to elevate this conversation beyond basics 101 stuff... SWe know how much I (and previous owner) lost in 6 years (22%). My crystal ball is broke.... I want a prediction of what the expected decay be linear or about 3.6%... or will rate of decay slow or accelerate loss of range? I realize there are many factors, environment (ambient temps), usage, charging habits and the generation of the pack itself..... There are many older LEAF's that show less decay over time... some way more. Yes I am aware of the early battery pack issues. I am not sure if my 24KW pack is a Lizard or not? Regardless ALL OF THEM LACK COOLING which is the Achilles heal of the design... :oops:

I am looking for insight (educated guessing) beyond the basics. If I keep going at 3.6% loss per year I can easily get another 6 years out it and then some for my current usage needs... For me 50 mile range would (practical 32 miles) would pretty much be rock bottom utility. Of course I would start charging (by need) to 100% all the time vs 80%. This may hasten the decline in range?

The LEAF body, suspension, system, paint, interior all seem up to the task of holding up for another 10 years w/o looking like garbage or costing a lot of money. No surprise my brake pads are good but need new tires (as the snow this week proved). I do keep it garaged and take care of it... It feels solid. DOES ANYONE KNOW OF SHOW STOPPING ISSUES WITH LEAFS, MOTOR, CHARGER, INVERTER....

I have over 3 years and 20,000 miles driving a LEAF. 80 mile range on guess-O-meter is based in the current Avg econ which mine is about 4.2 miles/KW at present (which is low due to some aggressive driving of late as I use it like a truck going to home depot on freeway at 70mph). When I first got it I tried to get as many trees as possible and could get 5/0 Mi/Kw or more average. However people drive like nuts around here, and driving then speed limited or any other hypermiling shenanigan's will get you run over. Also I ain't getting much younger, times a wasting... :D

Keep in mind when these early LEAF's were new they only had about 100 mile real driving range and now is 80 miles. It is not bad my friend. The World is not ending (yet). My typical mission ranges from 10-24 miles round trip and work is about 32-34 miles RT.*** I still go days without charging sometimes (unless I am using it to commute to work, again 2nd car). If the gauge has 40 miles on it I am good to go for a typical short trip...

I have a LEVEL 2 (LCS-25 / 4.6 KW clipper creek) in my garage so it is no big deal to charge it quickly.. Typically I am 25-35% or higher when I start a charge, so it only takes about 1.5-2 hours to get me over 80%.... However I rarely go to 100%. I try to keep charge around 80% to 90%....

I use the LEAF for local grocery getting, home depot (yes you can get a lot of lumber (8'-12') or PVC pipe even (10'-20') length in/out the hatch. I also use it for commuting... which is my longest mission, about 32-34 miles round trip. In theory I could do two days RT commute without charge. I did that a few times. However I don't like to strain the battery... As I lost range that ability to do 68 miles ( x2 RT commutes) comfortably is almost gone... even if I wanted to. Again I can charge it easily and quickly at home. I use the cars time to make sure it does not over charge. My 2015 does NOT have the 80% limit but I am good at, guessing the time needed to get the charge around 80%....

I plan to NEVER go below 20% (or 20 mile range remaining). I rarely trigger flashing low range warning (that starts with about 17 miles left). I have on a few occasions over 3 years got to where the range blanks.... but that was within a few miles of my house and under unusual circumstances. Once went to work and started with less than a full charge. A friend was stranded and called me at work. I left work, had to go save him. That extra round trip to my day which started with less than 100% charge got me home with DASH MARKS....... I never want to go under 20% and try and charge to about 80% max, so I get even less range... I do charge 100% on occasion to keep the battery capacity.... However when I charge to 100% I never let it set for a long time at 100%.... 80 mile range is PLENTY for me right now (or really 60 miles charging to 80% and never going under 20 mile range remaining).

The indicated range depends on how you drive and the current Avg Miles/KW.... ]If you "hyper mile", drive slower, accelerate slower, use regen brake or coast to stops, get lots of "trees" on a trip and your Avg miles/kw goes up. The Guess-O-meter will show longer range. I can get 80 miles out if it to "flashing dashes" if I wanted to. I have never seen nor do I want to see Turtle mode.... I have been driving aggressively lately and show 4.2 Miles/KW. I can easily get close to 5.0 Mile/Kw if I take it easy.....

My friend obviously AC and heat (steering wheel heat, seat heat, cabin heat even with the fancy heat recovery of my SV) will lower range.... That is a no brainer. My SV does have LED headlights, waste heat/electric hybrid cabin heater, fast DC charge, high capacity level 2 charge, NAV, rear view camera... Nice car.... However your point is a good one.... I am well aware any use of energy will cause loss of range. The diagnostic display shows you loss of mileage for ancillary systems (heat, AC...).

Guess-O-Meter and analytic stuff is an estimate. I can beat it if I drive like a Grandpa... Freeway constant 55 mph is OK but it is often better to take surface streets if you time lights, especially if it shaves miles off trip vs freeway. I don't do that much anymore. I drive it like I stole it now at +70 mph on freeway.... I have in past been able to AVG 5.0 M/Kw consistently, get a bunch of trees in one drive... Now I don't get one tree with a lead foot. AVG Mi/Kw is independent of battery state, but RANGE meter looks at it. If you take the original 24 Kw x 5.0 mi/kw that is 120 mile range in theory. Subtract the 20 mile reserve the car was only 100 mile car when New....

BTW it has been below freezing, in teens (Fahrenheit) for a week {unusual for this area and ahs made national news with 70% of country under snow). I lost (temporarily) based on cold battery capacity and using heat) about 20%. However 60 mile range (40 mile range with reserves) is still acceptable for my use per day which is never more than 34 miles in a single day***. I am able to plan my trips accordingly.

I have had this car for over 3 years (bought used from auction as car came off 3 yr lease). It now has over 30K miles in it. Considering I have lost only 22% in 6 years or about 3.6% / year I am doing OK, not great but not bad... I think with careful charging, charging late at night when cool, avoid driving it in peak summer months (this is a 2nd car).... I can milk this battery pack for another 6 yrs to the 6 years already logged. If I still have 60 mile range (40 mile range with 20 mile reserve) in 6 years (12 yrs total) I will be OK with that. I will then decide if I can get a new (or used pack). However in 6 yrs any used pack will likely be old as well unless I can get a rebuilt or later model pack that can be retrofitted. A used Kona or Bolt or now Mustang EV by then may be a better value and have more range. Even with a new / used LEAF pack it will still be a 100 mile car (mins my 20 mile reserve). The other EV's all advertise 200+ miles... They may lie by they have active cooling of packs.

*** I do occasionally go on 50 mile one way trip (100 mile round trip) with the leaf, out and back in just a few hour period, very successfully. On one 100 mile RT to the South there is a Nissan dealer with Fast DC charging along the route. My SV has fast DC charging and +6Kw level 2 capacity. I can drive to destination and start back home and make the dealer to charge, right off freeway. There are so few EV's in this part of the country, the chargers are always open and working unless an ICE hole blocks it.... Fast DC charging is truly fast. I don't have to charge to 100%, which only takes about 40 minutes... To make it home easily I only need 60-70%... The total time to drive to divert to dealer, charge and get back on the freeway is no more than 30 min total... plus I get a buck or two of free electricity.

The other 40 mile trip (80 mile round trip) is to the East, there is another Nissan dealer, this one also with Level 2 & Fast DC charging 20 miles from my house. So I have to start at 100%, drive conservatively and get to destination, turn around and get to the dealer. I arrive at dealer with low range warning just popping up. I stop for a little 10 min fast charge to make it home which is not too far away... All this is an adventure, not practical. I take the highway route, average speed 45-55 mph vs freeway that is 65-70 mph. The highway route also shaves many miles from trip vs Freeway. By doing this I get my average M/Kw up and essentially adds range.... This just requires slow acceleration, coasting to stops and doing speed limit..... I do enjoy getting free charges. The alternative is get in my 700 mile range VW diesel TDI which takes 3 min to "charge" (fill up). :D

The point being if you have a Nissan dealer on your route, with fast charge and your LEAF has that capacity, it makes longer trips possible. If you commute and can charge at work then I could do 60 mile one way summer and 48 miles winter.... even with an old LEAF. Compare to my VW Diesel that has 700 mile range (14.5 gal tank). When I do a road trip the VW is the machine. I have friends that live 260 miles away. The Nissan dealers are too few and far between/ I am NOT going to pay some dumb amount per KW charge or use LEVEL 1 charger... I get in my VW and I am at their house in 3 to 4 hours non stop, Then after the weekend I turn around and go home over 500 miles and still have 200 miles range left on one tank. .. An electric car (even a newer long range one) would require at least two or three charges, one intermediate charge stop each way... plus charge at destination. The LEAF? Ha ha. I have an electric generator. I guess I could pull over and connect it to the charger?

PS I also have free charging at a public park near my house. They have 10 level 2 chargers under a shelter. 2 or 3 of them are always in use by park charging their small EV carts.... The sad part is my state charges me $100 fine/penalty for driving an EV (levied every year with registration tab) due to loss in their state fuel taxes. That reduces the economy of driving a EV a bit.... however the good news electricity is only about 0.11 cents a KW. I also enjoy the non-hassle of charging at home and not going to gas stations.... If I could only have one car it would not be an EV.... If the Libs get their way we will all be in the dark and or paying 10 times current prices for electricity.

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