DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15639
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:00 am

SageBrush wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:07 pm
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:32 pm
That's great for a 2013 Leaf.
Yeah, and I'd llke to take some credit but I honestly think Nissan batteries have lousy QC so for all I know I was lucky and got a good pack.
Not buying that. I have found that most EVers don't tell all when explaining their charging habits. You are simply more aware of what needed to be done and found ways to do it easily. Later versions w/o custom charge settings just encouraged people to think "Nissan took care of it" so I don't have to w/o realizing Nissan was the ONLY manufacturer w/o custom charge settings. They deluded themselves into thinking it didn't matter.

You really wouldn't believe what people do under the impression they are being a "good EVer" and then recommending it to new EVers.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 19,653 mi, 93.47% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6261
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:57 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 8:00 am
SageBrush wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:07 pm
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:32 pm
That's great for a 2013 Leaf.
Yeah, and I'd llke to take some credit but I honestly think Nissan batteries have lousy QC so for all I know I was lucky and got a good pack.
Not buying that. I have found that most EVers don't tell all when explaining their charging habits. You are simply more aware of what needed to be done and found ways to do it easily. Later versions w/o custom charge settings just encouraged people to think "Nissan took care of it" so I don't have to w/o realizing Nissan was the ONLY manufacturer w/o custom charge settings. They deluded themselves into thinking it didn't matter.

You really wouldn't believe what people do under the impression they are being a "good EVer" and then recommending it to new EVers.
I obviously *think* I know ways to prolong battery life or I wouldn't be doing them, but Doug is right: anecdotes just do not mean much. In part because conditions vary from car to car and from climate to climate; in part for the reasons you mention; and in part I suspect because of wide variation in battery quality from the factory.

I do agree that some of the things that owners do in the name of battery protection make me shake my head. Closed garages in hot climates is a leading example. How would my battery look today if I had started out with a poor quality battery and then carried out all my 'good' behaviors ? I don't really know, but I doubt I would be happy with my battery.

I am by no means trying to say that 'good' behaviors are a waste of time -- far from it. I am saying that we should all be humble in drawing too strong a conclusion how much any one strategy or explanation explains (or does not explain) the car battery health. All we really know, based on battery research and large group analysis, is that heat , fast charging, prolonged high SoC, and Li plating are all degradation accelerants and when present at the same time their effect is greater than their sums. Specifics are lacking, so all we can do is minimize exposure to these risks within the context of keeping the car a useful device for our use cases.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

danrjones
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:15 am

danrjones wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 7:54 am
SageBrush wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:41 pm
danrjones wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:59 pm
I'll be blunt, I'm glad I'm getting rid of it later this year. I don't really want to try and sell it with a bar missing.
You sound more optimistic than I would be that the car will have 12 bars after another hot summer.
Yes I know but no choice. I don't want to pay back the CA rebate, so technically I must keep the vehicle for a total of 2.5 years.
not sure they really check but I don't feel like taking the chance. And the end of the year usually has good deals anyway.

but man the SOH keeps dropping....

This AM down to 87.82% with still less than 9200 miles.
I'd post a graph but images here require being hosted elsewhere, correct?


Now there is some good news: The warranty is still has 6 years left, so Nissan may be giving someone a new battery later.

My adjustment FINALLY finished over the weekend. Seems like this one took forever, and it hurt.

SOH: 87.40%
AmpHr: 100.89
Hx: 102.85%


BMS took away over 2.5%. That actually is the biggest adjustment I've had.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2690
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:25 am

Wow, that is a big drop given your limited miles. When is the last time you charged to 100%?

On the same breath, this 2020 M3 owner who posted today is down 12% with not many more miles, so who knows what's expected. (Not meant to be a trolling comment, just that many evs show a range of loss in first couple years).

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 12/page-26
2019 S Plus (93.86% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (93.35% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6261
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:46 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:25 am
On the same breath, this 2020 M3 owner who posted today is down 12% with not many more miles, so who knows what's expected. (Not meant to be a trolling comment, just that many evs show a range of loss in first couple years).
The Model 3/Y is known to develop calibration errors with certain home charging routines, so unless you have good reason to think that the LEAF correction is also a calibration error, your attempt to imply that Tesla EVs also suffer LEAF level battery degradation is wrong.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

danrjones
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:14 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Mon Mar 15, 2021 11:25 am
Wow, that is a big drop given your limited miles. When is the last time you charged to 100%?

On the same breath, this 2020 M3 owner who posted today is down 12% with not many more miles, so who knows what's expected. (Not meant to be a trolling comment, just that many evs show a range of loss in first couple years).

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 12/page-26
I charged up very close to 100% back on the 19th (?) of February because i had to drive for service at my dealer. Didn't quite hit 100% I believe it was 98%. But I basically never charge 100%. I would guess the previous time was 5, maybe 6 months prior. I've been otherwise keeping it between 30 and 70ish percent.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2690
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:18 am

Ok, so you have been babying the battery. Not sure then what might be driving the loss (real or bms). The fellow in Japan with a 40 just hit 100K miles with lots of DC charges and just over 3 years with SoH of 84% (still 12 bars). This bms is still a bit of a mystery as usage cycle doesn't seem to explain the outcomes.

Sage, yes many (but not all),see some artifical loss due to calibration.
2019 S Plus (93.86% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (93.35% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

danrjones
Posts: 1048
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Tue Mar 16, 2021 7:18 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:18 am
Ok, so you have been babying the battery. Not sure then what might be driving the loss (real or bms). The fellow in Japan with a 40 just hit 100K miles with lots of DC charges and just over 3 years with SoH of 84% (still 12 bars). This bms is still a bit of a mystery as usage cycle doesn't seem to explain the outcomes.

Sage, yes many (but not all),see some artifical loss due to calibration.
Other than ambient temp, I've tried. Interesting to read someone else's story here of charging to 100% every day.

And who knows, maybe the BMS does need to see a full charge more often. I don't know.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

jmurtagh13
Posts: 33
Joined: Sun Nov 01, 2015 4:54 am
Delivery Date: 10 Mar 2018
Leaf Number: 300844
Location: Atlanta GA

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Tue Mar 16, 2021 8:46 am

Image

3 years 25K miles, down 11.21%, Not too bad I guess. Of course that's if the BMS reading is correct.

Due to popular request added a mileage column ;)

I keep the charge level between 30 and 70% and no DC charging.
2018 Leaf March 10, 2018
34 months, 24,732 miles
SOH 88.84

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6261
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: The 40KWH Battery Topic

Tue Mar 16, 2021 9:25 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:18 am
Sage, yes many (but not all),see some artifical loss due to calibration.
You are grossly uninformed. When a change in charging routine improves the reported range, it is called a calibration issue. Instances where an increase in reported range are not reported are of uncertain cause, of which battery degradation is one possible explanation. The ONLY confident way to document battery degradation is by showing a reduction in energy required to charge from a low SoC to a high SoC under similar battery conditions.

A less accurate but not-bad approach is calculate the energy that leaves the pack as the SoC drops from a high to a low level. This is some variant of Wh/distance*distance but the Wh/distance meter can be tricky or inaccurate

LeafSpy or LeafSpy Pro has a screen that shows power into the pack during charging. You can use that to ~ calculate capacity. It is approximate because battery resistance is ignored and pack hysteresis is a can of worms. See
http://www.wind-works.org/cms/index.php ... the%20shop.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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