Charging and OBC discussion split from Nissan Ariya thread

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WetEV said:
GRA said:
What is often the driving force in off-grid systems is days of autonomy you can meet the demand, usually 3 to a maximum of 10 (when I was designing these systems), and being able to replenish that autonomy given the solar/wind resource before it was next needed would determine the amount of generation required. Cottages and the like used only on weekends could use bigger battery packs and smaller PV arrays, because they had enough time in between demand to recharge for the next demand period, and you can usually cut out a few optional loads with minimal impact if you occasionally come up short. Full-time occupancy is a different matter - you've got to design the system so the PV generates an excess of the daily load, so it can replenish the batteries are while continuing to meet the daily demand after a period of low production.

OK

Two identical houses with identical loads and solar exposure.

One house has a battery of size x.
The other has battery of size 2x.

Which house needs the larger PV array?

Show your work.


Show me the energy and power required, listing all loads, times and hours of use and which will be used simultaneously, the climate, the location, the variable resources available (e.g. hours of peak sun equivalent) and any constraints (tree shading, mounting location etc.) that reduce that number, plus desired days of autonomy and your budget. But first, if I were still doing this stuff and you hadn't worked out much of the answers for yourself already, you'd have to pay me for my time.

Or, nowadays you could just go online and use a program like PVWatts to get you in the ballpark; although the last time I looked that was aimed more at grid-intertied systems, but much of the needed info is common.
 
GRA said:
WetEV said:
Two identical houses with identical loads and solar exposure.

One house has a battery of size x.
The other has battery of size 2x.

Which house needs the larger PV array?

Show your work.
No work shown, can't answer?

Start over.

GRA said:
Given the large 90kWh (87kWh usable) pack (and somewhat for the smaller 65kWh, 63 usable) the charging rates seem too low, particularly L2.

The charging rate required goes down with increasing battery sizes, in the same service.

For most people, driving around the city distances most of the time, no increase in charging rate is needed.

Maybe you want it. Don't confuse your wants with reality.
 
WetEV said:
The charging rate required goes down with increasing battery sizes, in the same service.
That's obviously true ("in the same service" is key), but it's also fair to say that increasing battery size alone expands the possible use cases less than increasing battery size and charging rate together would.

Cheers, Wayne
 
WetEV said:
GRA said:
WetEV said:
Two identical houses with identical loads and solar exposure.

One house has a battery of size x.
The other has battery of size 2x.

Which house needs the larger PV array?

Show your work.
No work shown, can't answer?


Can't be bothered to answer, as there's simply not enough information to make such a calc valuable, especially if you want to know what's the least expensive way to do the job (as pretty much every customer does). The may not choose that option but they sure as hell want to know what it is. Even if the loads are identical, who's using them and how is critical. Here's a related example from "Sustainable Energy - Without the Hot Air" of 12 identical houses with identical heating systems:
as proof that “the most
important smart component in a building with smart heating is the occupant,”
figure 21.2 shows data from a Carbon Trust study, observing the
heat consumption in twelve identical modern houses. This study permits
us to gawp at the family at number 1, whose heat consumption is twice
as big as that of Mr. and Mrs. Woolly at number 12.

https://www.withouthotair.com/c21/page_141.shtml

The same is true for any such calc. As I said, you need to know how much the customer is willing to accommodate themselves to the system. Early adopters, generally a fair amount. Mainstream customers, little if any; they expect the system to meet their needs with the minimum inconvenience to them, as well as requiring them to learn little if anything about how it works. Which is why a system (or car) designed for the latter group needs to be overbuilt compared to the former.


WetEV said:
GRA said:
Given the large 90kWh (87kWh usable) pack (and somewhat for the smaller 65kWh, 63 usable) the charging rates seem too low, particularly L2.

The charging rate required goes down with increasing battery sizes, in the same service.

For most people, driving around the city distances most of the time, no increase in charging rate is needed.

Maybe you want it. Don't confuse your wants with reality.


Have I ever said that an increase in charging rate is necessary, for most people with dedicated, guaranteed charging? Nope. I've said that it's wanted by many, and needed by some.
 
GRA said:
I've said that it's wanted by many, and needed by some.

Likely most wouldn't pay the extra cost.

If you are sane, you don't discharge below 20%, even on a long trip. Likewise, you don't charge above 80%, unless right before departure.

87kWh / 7.2kW * 60% is 7.25 hours charging time. A bit more due to unavoidable inefficiencies. Yea, another 2.4 hours if charging to 100%. But all of this is improbable and unusual.

What is usual would be the daily trips. 50 miles at 3 kWh/mile would be 2.4 hours. Fits in super off peak, even if just 3 hours.

Rare would be leaving for a long trip. 50% to 100% at departure. 6 hours (and a bit more). Sure, might pay a bit more once or twice a year. So?

Or returning from a long trip. Arriving home at say 30%, charge during super off peak for 3 hours, get to enough for tomorrow. Or just charge till 80%.

There is nothing bad about a 7.2kW charger for almost anyone. Save money on the car, on the EVSE, on the wiring.

Only dirty hydrogen salesmen will be pushing large chargers.
 
WetEV said:
GRA said:
I've said that it's wanted by many, and needed by some.

Likely most wouldn't pay the extra cost.

If you are sane, you don't discharge below 20%, even on a long trip. Likewise, you don't charge above 80%, unless right before departure.

87kWh / 7.2kW * 60% is 7.25 hours charging time. A bit more due to unavoidable inefficiencies. Yea, another 2.4 hours if charging to 100%. But all of this is improbable and unusual.

What is usual would be the daily trips. 50 miles at 3 kWh/mile would be 2.4 hours. Fits in super off peak, even if just 3 hours.

Rare would be leaving for a long trip. 50% to 100% at departure. 6 hours (and a bit more). Sure, might pay a bit more once or twice a year. So?

Or returning from a long trip. Arriving home at say 30%, charge during super off peak for 3 hours, get to enough for tomorrow. Or just charge till 80%.

There is nothing bad about a 7.2kW charger for almost anyone. Save money on the car, on the EVSE, on the wiring.

Only dirty hydrogen salesmen will be pushing large chargers.


And only manufacturers who disagree with you will put them in their cars, and members of the public likewise will buy them. The ID.4, Mach-E, Ionic 5 and presumably EV6 plus all current Teslas use 48A OBCs. If there's no demand, why?
 
GRA said:
WetEV said:
There is nothing bad about a 7.2kW charger for almost anyone. Save money on the car, on the EVSE, on the wiring.


And only manufacturers who disagree with you will put them in their cars, and members of the public likewise will buy them. The ID.4, Mach-E, Ionic 5 and presumably EV6 plus all current Teslas use 48A OBCs. If there's no demand, why?

Notice that most EVSEs are 40A or less. This is where customers have a choice. What do people pick when they have a choice?

Notice that it isn't an option. And the cars you mention are upscale cars, not your "mass market". Nissan is targeting a more price constrained market. You have a problem with that?


Oh, and tell us how dirty hydrogen car sales boomed in 2020... or didn't.

Do tell us how many years you have owned or leased an EV. I have a 30 Amp EVSE, and it is just fine. I have first hand experience.
 
WetEV said:
GRA said:
WetEV said:
There is nothing bad about a 7.2kW charger for almost anyone. Save money on the car, on the EVSE, on the wiring.


And only manufacturers who disagree with you will put them in their cars, and members of the public likewise will buy them. The ID.4, Mach-E, Ionic 5 and presumably EV6 plus all current Teslas use 48A OBCs. If there's no demand, why?

Notice that most EVSEs are 40A or less. This is where customers have a choice. What do people pick when they have a choice?

Notice that it isn't an option. And the cars you mention are upscale cars, not your "mass market". Nissan is targeting a more price constrained market. You have a problem with that?


Oh, and tell us how dirty hydrogen car sales boomed in 2020... or didn't.

Do tell us how many years you have owned or leased an EV. I have a 30 Amp EVSE, and it is just fine. I have first hand experience.


Customers who are fine with less than 48A at home will choose EVSEs to suit, and those who aren't will do likewise. What else is new? Personally, I'd probably opt for a 40A EVSE with a plug if I had a free choice of which to buy, just to give me more flexibility, as I now have 4 DCFC stations within a couple of miles of me for short notice trips where I really don't want to wait. And 30-32A at home, if i needed a daily driver, would also be fine for me for the same reason. As previously mentioned, given my intermittent usage I could even live with L1 now that I've got those DCFC options, but that's me. 48A at home with 1.5x the charge rate compared to 30-32A buys flexibility and convenience for those willing to pay for it, i.e. charging to a given level in 2/3rds the time. For public L2, people who don't have or prefer not to use DCFC will benefit from faster L2.

Nissan is targeting a price-constrained market with the ariya? Why not offer the smaller battery pack here, then? They're competing with big battery-pack cars; the extra price of the OBC is minimal compared to the extra price of the pack. If they really do stick to 32A for their introduction, I'm willing to bet that they will either have an option for or include a faster OBC by the time the MLU rolls around, if not sooner. Of course, they'll probably require a higher trim level or bundle it with a bunch of less important but higher margin options to boost their profit.

Couldn't tell you how dirty hydrogen car sales boomed or didn't in 2020. Actually, total car sales shrank considerably. H2 trucks, buses and trains, OTH, all advanced considerably. OTOH, as I noted in the H2 topic clean hydrogen in California made up 90% of retail H2 fuel sales in 2020 and 92% in the 1st half of this year, vs. the 33 or 40% RFS requirement here, leaving 8 or 10% dirty. Since everyone knows the need. we're also building more clean H2 production. As are other companies and countries with similar RFS.
 
GRA said:
WetEV said:
Notice that most EVSEs are 40A or less. This is where customers have a choice. What do people pick when they have a choice?
Do tell us how many years you have owned or leased an EV. I have a 30 Amp EVSE, and it is just fine. I have first hand experience.
48A at home with 1.5x the charge rate compared to 30-32A buys flexibility and convenience for those willing to pay for it, i.e. charging to a given level in 2/3rds the time.
In practice, this almost never matters. Who really cares how long it takes to charge, while you are sleeping, when it is done when you get in?

Perhaps someone that drive a huge number of miles, and say comes home for lunch needing a charge before driving more, perhaps in sales or something like that? A rare case, at best.


GRA said:
For public L2, people who don't have or prefer not to use DCFC will benefit from faster L2.

Again, there is a rare case. L2 is cheaper to install than DCFC, and some remote places have higher power L2. Shorten your stay with a higher power OBC.


GRA said:
Nissan is targeting a price-constrained market with the ariya? Why not offer the smaller battery pack here, then?

Gain in usefulness per dollar spent, especially over the term of the car's production.


GRA said:
Couldn't tell you how dirty hydrogen car sales boomed or didn't in 2020. Actually, total car sales shrank considerably.

Total vehicle sales were down, but EV sales were almost flat.

https://insideevs.com/news/487969/2020-us-electric-car-sales-tesla-share/

And fuel cell vehicle sales collapsed.

https://insideevs.com/news/482386/us-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-sales-2020/

hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicle-sales-in-us-2020.png
 
WetEV said:
GRA said:
WetEV said:
Notice that most EVSEs are 40A or less. This is where customers have a choice. What do people pick when they have a choice?
Do tell us how many years you have owned or leased an EV. I have a 30 Amp EVSE, and it is just fine. I have first hand experience.
48A at home with 1.5x the charge rate compared to 30-32A buys flexibility and convenience for those willing to pay for it, i.e. charging to a given level in 2/3rds the time.
In practice, this almost never matters. Who really cares how long it takes to charge, while you are sleeping, when it is done when you get in?

Perhaps someone that drive a huge number of miles, and say comes home for lunch needing a charge before driving more, perhaps in sales or something like that? A rare case, at best.


It doesn't matter how rare it is, if someone decides they want that flexibility and are willing to pay for it.


WetEV said:
GRA said:
For public L2, people who don't have or prefer not to use DCFC will benefit from faster L2.

Again, there is a rare case. L2 is cheaper to install than DCFC, and some remote places have higher power L2. Shorten your stay with a higher power OBC.


Which is the point. My closest public L2s are a bank of 10 Blinks installed around 2013 and right downtown, within range of city Hall, shopping,r restaurants etc. Within the past year all the original EVSEs were replaced with newer models. At the time the original ones were installed, 6.6kW vs. 3.3 kW (Focus vs. LEAF) was a big deal, and I don't recall any cars charging faster than 30-32A (208V). Was passing by last night and saw a Mach-E parked at one, and as all the others I've seen have been driving by, went over to take a look. Since it was charging I checked the screen to see at what rate. It either was charging or had charged (not sure which) at 10kW. AFAIK, when they replaced the EVSEs they didn't upgrade the wiring. I was curious, so checked the EVSE placard. Turns out it's rated up to 80A output (although I don't know if the wiring can handle that here), just in case a Tesla, a Lucid or whatever the next 100+kWh battery car pulls up. Good thing, because parking's limited to 4 hours max. Which means that single L2 can service two cars during the typical work day, one before and one after lunch.


WetEV said:
GRA said:
Nissan is targeting a price-constrained market with the ariya? Why not offer the smaller battery pack here, then?

Gain in usefulness per dollar spent, especially over the term of the car's production.


Yet they will clearly be competing with the ID.4, and assuming the price comes in a similar range the Ionic 5/EV6.


WetEV said:
GRA said:
Couldn't tell you how dirty hydrogen car sales boomed or didn't in 2020. Actually, total car sales shrank considerably.

Total vehicle sales were down, but EV sales were almost flat.


As higher-pried cars took over the market.


WetEV said:
https://insideevs.com/news/487969/2020-us-electric-car-sales-tesla-share/

And fuel cell vehicle sales collapsed.

https://insideevs.com/news/482386/us-hydrogen-fuel-cell-car-sales-2020/

hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicle-sales-in-us-2020.png


And we know why, lack of fuel in the 2nd half of 2019 stalled new station infrastructure, which carried on through 2020 due to Covid, plus lack of model choice.
 
GRA said:
It doesn't matter how rare it is, if someone decides they want that flexibility and are willing to pay for it.

But if most don't want it, and are not willing to pay for it.... Which we see by what EVSEs they buy. Why do you want to force everyone to get higher power OBCs?


GRA said:
WetEV said:
Again, there is a rare case. L2 is cheaper to install than DCFC, and some remote places have higher power L2. Shorten your stay with a higher power OBC.
Which is the point. My ...

Again, pushing the rare case, trying to increase the cost and requirements of EVs. Spreading FUD with glee.


GRA said:
WetEV said:
GRA said:
Nissan is targeting a price-constrained market with the ariya? Why not offer the smaller battery pack here, then?
Gain in usefulness per dollar spent, especially over the term of the car's production.
Yet they will clearly be competing with the ID.4, and assuming the price comes in a similar range the Ionic 5/EV6.

Competing by producing a slightly lower priced vehicle that does most of the same.


GRA said:
WetEV said:
GRA said:
Couldn't tell you how dirty hydrogen car sales boomed or didn't in 2020. Actually, total car sales shrank considerably.
Total vehicle sales were down, but EV sales were almost flat.
As higher-pried cars took over the market.

EVs are now premium cars. As Rolls Royce recently figured out... in 1900.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37770400/rolls-royce-spectre-ev-revealed/
Charles Rolls in 1900 said:
The electric car is perfectly noiseless and clean. There is no smell or vibration, and they should become very useful when fixed charging stations can be arranged.

While no price is announced, if you need to ask, you are not in the market for one.

Yet this changes, as the lowering cost of batteries is pushing the market for BEVs into lower prices. You too can buy a quieter, cleaner and smoother car... it is called a LEAF.


GRA said:
WetEV said:
And fuel cell vehicle sales collapsed.
hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicle-sales-in-us-2020.png


And we know why, lack of fuel in the 2nd half of 2019 stalled new station infrastructure, which carried on through 2020 due to Covid, plus lack of model choice.

You missed a key point. There is nothing what so ever that a driver cares about, that a hydrogen fuel cell car does better than a BEV.

Range? Drive across the USA in a BEV and see how far the hydrogen car goes.
Cost? Hydrogen will always be more expensive than electric power.
Pollution? Hydrogen is dirtier than coal... and likely to stay that way for decades.

Sure, could boost fool cell sales with more subsidies. A lot of BEVs are now sold with no or minimal subsidy.
 
WetEV said:
GRA said:
It doesn't matter how rare it is, if someone decides they want that flexibility and are willing to pay for it.

But if most don't want it, and are not willing to pay for it.... Which we see by what EVSEs they buy. Why do you want to force everyone to get higher power OBCs?


In an ideal world I'd agree with you; I much prefer un-bundled options so I can pick and choose exactly what I want. We know things don't work that way. And I expect the extra cost of a 40 or 48A OBC vice a 32A is minimal, at least at mass-scale. BTW, here's an example of a new Mach-E owner trying to decide between a 40A EVSE with a plug versus a 48A hardwired one (essentially the same decision I'd have to make if given a free choice), with a variety of views expressed (including one the same as yours): https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/evse-48a-hardwired-vs-40a-plug-in.4416/ I guess we'll see what EVSE he buys, but it almost certainly won't be 32A.


WetEV said:
GRA said:
WetEV said:
Again, there is a rare case. L2 is cheaper to install than DCFC, and some remote places have higher power L2. Shorten your stay with a higher power OBC.
Which is the point. My ...

Again, pushing the rare case, trying to increase the cost and requirements of EVs. Spreading FUD with glee.


How is noting that all the cars the Ariya will be competing with come with 48A chargers, FUD? It's a fact.



WetEV said:
GRA said:
WetEV said:
Gain in usefulness per dollar spent, especially over the term of the car's production.
Yet they will clearly be competing with the ID.4, and assuming the price comes in a similar range the Ionic 5/EV6.

Competing by producing a slightly lower priced vehicle that does most of the same.


Outside of fleet sales, cars of close to comparable price are bought for specific features and personal preference, not a few hundred here or there. We still don't have a price for the Ariya, do we? But unless Nissan has cheaped out on everything, it's going to cost the same or considerably more than the ID.4 et al, because you're paying for an extra 8 kWh of battery - at say $150/kWh at the pack level (twice that retail), you're talking an extra $1,200 to produce it ($2,400 retail).


WetEV said:
GRA said:
WetEV said:
Total vehicle sales were down, but EV sales were almost flat.
As higher-pried cars took over the market.

EVs are now premium cars. As Rolls Royce recently figured out... in 1900.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37770400/rolls-royce-spectre-ev-revealed/
Charles Rolls in 1900 said:
The electric car is perfectly noiseless and clean. There is no smell or vibration, and they should become very useful when fixed charging stations can be arranged.

While no price is announced, if you need to ask, you are not in the market for one.

Yet this changes, as the lowering cost of batteries is pushing the market for BEVs into lower prices. You too can buy a quieter, cleaner and smoother car... it is called a LEAF.


Sure, and have the battery die in a few years as I drive it repeatedly on steep climbs in the mountains and in hot desert areas. But since it simply lacks the range and charging speed I need, it's price is irrelevant to me.


WetEV said:
GRA said:
And we know why, lack of fuel in the 2nd half of 2019 stalled new station infrastructure, which carried on through 2020 due to Covid, plus lack of model choice.

You missed a key point. There is nothing what so ever that a driver cares about, that a hydrogen fuel cell car does better than a BEV.

Range? Drive across the USA in a BEV and see how far the hydrogen car goes.
Cost? Hydrogen will always be more expensive than electric power.
Pollution? Hydrogen is dirtier than coal... and likely to stay that way for decades.

Sure, could boost fool cell sales with more subsidies. A lot of BEVs are now sold with no or minimal subsidy.


Actually, there are several things a fuel cell does better than a BEV, and does them comparable to an ICE, which drivers overwhelmingly prefer to BEVs now, despite gas being generally more expensive (Of course, I'm a supporter of PHFCEVs for most people, to maximize the advantages and minimize the disadvantages of both techs). Better range, especially in winter, faster refueling to 100% (not just 80%), the ability to routinely use virtually all of the car's range with no degradation, longer life, just as clean if H2 is produced renewably. I note you once again ignore that California's retail H2 stations are using 90+% renewable H2 which has to meet the states' LCFS. Lack of ability to drive across the country is due to lack of infrastructure, just as BEVs were limited before their charging infrastructure was built, or fossil-fueled ICEs FTM. Until the station at Harris Ranch opened, you couldn't drive a Mirai between LA and SF or SAC; then you could.

BEV sales no less than FCEV sales remain dependent on subsidies, although the Bolt (once you can buy one again) is getting there. Speaking of FCEV sales in California, from the current Annual Evaluation:

Based on Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) records of active FCEV registrations, California
had 7,993 on-road FCEVs as of April 1, 202112. Similar to reporting in prior years, the latest industry
estimates indicate a larger number of cumulative FCEV sales, at 10,665 in the United States by June
1, 2021 [13]. The COVID-19 pandemic significantly decreased sales across the automotive industry in
2020. Based on industry estimates, 2020 FCEV sales dropped more than 50 percent from any of the
prior three years of sales and were the lowest since 2015 [13]. Hydrogen supply constraints in 2020
and 2021 may have also played a role in reducing vehicle sales.

Although sales were markedly lower in 2020 due to the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, the industry
appears to be on a path to recovery in 2021. Through June 1, 2021, industry estimates report 1,734
FCEV sales [13]. The FCEV sales volume to date in 2021 is already equal to 185 percent of the sales
in all of 2020 and 83 percent of the sales in all of 2019. The first quarter of 2021 was also the best-
selling quarter since industry tracking began in 2012
[13]. Stronger sales in 2021 are likely influenced
by the release of the redesigned 2021 model year Toyota Mirai.

The CEC’s December 2020 approval of awards in GFO-19-602 significantly strengthened the outlook
for hydrogen fueling infrastructure in California and could encourage a more aggressive auto
manufacturer outlook for future FCEV sales. Based on the most recent survey of auto manufacturers,
the industry appears to have regained confidence in sales potential through 2027. Updated
estimates project 30,800 FCEVs on the road as early as 2024 and 61,100 as early as 2027 as shown
in Figure ES 6. The near-term pace of deployment (through 2025) is similar to estimates based on
the 2020 survey, while projections for 2025 through 2027 have accelerated. In the past, long-term
projections (mostly in the Optional Period) have been higher than actual FCEV deployment while
near-term projections have been more accurate. . . .

12 The CEC’s ZEV Dashboard reports 7,129 FCEVs on the road at the end of 2020 [16]

https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/2021-09/2021_AB-8_FINAL.pdf, page xix.

This is all a pointlessly repetitive argument, so I'll end this by putting down my marker. I say that if Nissan doesn't offer a higher than 32A OBC in the Ariya initially, it will do so no later than the car's MLU, quite possibly sooner. Whether it's included across the board or only offered on higher trims (as e.g. the RAV4Prime's faster OBC is, or the LEAF's once upon a time, not sure currently as I don't pay attention to LEAF trims anymore) I won't guess.

I take it you think they won't. As with your prediction that U.S. BEV sales (or was it PEV? I'll have to look it up) would reach 4% total this year, we'll see. The EPA's only guesstimating 8% by 2026; not sure if that's assuming the increased subsidies are passed, or not.
 
GRA said:
How is noting that all the cars the Ariya will be competing with come with 48A chargers, FUD? It's a fact.

As is the fact that a Model T had a one barrel carburetor. A horse owner focusing on this irrelevant "flaw" is FUD.


GRA said:
WetEV said:
You missed a key point. There is nothing what so ever that a driver cares about, that a hydrogen fuel cell car does better than a BEV.

Range? Drive across the USA in a BEV and see how far the hydrogen car goes.
Cost? Hydrogen will always be more expensive than electric power.
Pollution? Hydrogen is dirtier than coal... and likely to stay that way for decades.

Sure, could boost fool cell sales with more subsidies. A lot of BEVs are now sold with no or minimal subsidy.


Actually, there are several things a fuel cell does better than a BEV

Like what exactly? A trip to Grand Canyon with a BEV is fairly easy to do.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=7a1ca112-127a-4239-a20a-721aaa3102f1

How long would your fool cell car take? Assuming you can push it that far, of course.
 
GRA said:
because you're paying for an extra 8 kWh of battery - at say $150/kWh at the pack level (twice that retail), you're talking an extra $1,200 to produce it ($2,400 retail).

:lol:

Sure hope you didn't pay good money for that calculator...
 
It's somewhat sad to see all of you arguing with the troll who has been on this forum for 10 years stating how no current (*) EV can meet his needs for a variety of reasons.

All this noise started because on the Ariya's OBC being only 32A. That's good enough for most level 2 charging needs.


(*) where "current" keeps getting updated year after year
 
WetEV said:
GRA said:
How is noting that all the cars the Ariya will be competing with come with 48A chargers, FUD? It's a fact.

As is the fact that a Model T had a one barrel carburetor. A horse owner focusing on this irrelevant "flaw" is FUD.


Unless it's a feature that causes one buyer to choose car A over car B, and that's not irrelevant at all.


WetEV said:
GRA said:
WetEV said:
You missed a key point. There is nothing what so ever that a driver cares about, that a hydrogen fuel cell car does better than a BEV.

Range? Drive across the USA in a BEV and see how far the hydrogen car goes.
Cost? Hydrogen will always be more expensive than electric power.
Pollution? Hydrogen is dirtier than coal... and likely to stay that way for decades.

Sure, could boost fool cell sales with more subsidies. A lot of BEVs are now sold with no or minimal subsidy.


Actually, there are several things a fuel cell does better than a BEV

Like what exactly?

I gave you a list - if you can't be bothered to read it or choose to ignore it, that's on you.


WetEV said:
A trip to Grand Canyon with a BEV is fairly easy to do.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?plan_uuid=7a1ca112-127a-4239-a20a-721aaa3102f1

How long would your fool cell car take? Assuming you can push it that far, of course.


Right now, no time at all, because lacking the necessary fueling infrastructure all the manufacturers of FCEVs typically provide 21 days of free rentals of an ICE, allowing you to go anywhere you want in the country without having to plan your route or your destination around charging stops. With the infrastructure, an FCEV takes the same time as any ICE, something which isn't the case with a BEV yet, and may never be.

So, how's that trip to Glacier or Great Basin or Monument Valley in your e-Tron coming? I do see that there's now a single dual standard 50kW FC in Polson, MT at a Taco Bell, which after some major teething troubles seems to have gotten a bit more reliable, so if you're willing to depend on that you can at least get to Glacier now, and if you keep your speed down, don't do much driving in the park and the weather cooperates you can also get back.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
GRA said:
because you're paying for an extra 8 kWh of battery - at say $150/kWh at the pack level (twice that retail), you're talking an extra $1,200 to produce it ($2,400 retail).

:lol:

Sure hope you didn't pay good money for that calculator...


Feel free to correct my math. Did it in my head IIRR, but let's do it together and use an online calculator, shall we? 8kWh x $150*/kWh = $1200, manufacturing usually makes up 50% of MSRP, so $1,200/.5 = $2400. Do you come up with a different result?

*at the pack level
 
jlv said:
It's somewhat sad to see all of you arguing with the troll who has been on this forum for 10 years stating how no current (*) EV can meet his needs for a variety of reasons.

All this noise started because on the Ariya's OBC being only 32A. That's good enough for most level 2 charging needs.


(*) where "current" keeps getting updated year after year


Because no current BEV has yet to meet the requirements that any number of ICEs have been able to meet for decades. Once they can, I'll be happy to switch. In the meantime, I rent a BEV every now and then and use it on a trip to see how much closer they are. They are getting there, and who knows, in another 3-5 years they may be there. Oh, and I'm not a troll, as I don't post to generate controversy, although that may be the effect when talking to a bunch of self-selected people who've already determined that such and such a product must be suitable for everyone; after all, it meets their requirements, so what more proof is needed?

As to 32A being good enough for most charging needs, at home or work with guaranteed charging with no time limits for routine use, sure; that's never been the argument. FTM you could mostly say the same for 16A L2. It's a question of what many people want and others need, and what the competition is providing.
 
GRA said:
Because no current BEV has yet to meet the requirements that any number of ICEs have been able to meet for decades.
Since BEVs have a number of advantages over ICEVs, strict dominance in capabilities in not a reasonable standard to hold BEVs to. All that is required is for the BEVs' advantages to outweigh their disadvantages, relative to ICEVs. Depending on how heavily you weight the lack of distributed pollution from BEVs, the point at which BEVs surpass ICEVs will come sooner or later. For me, for passenger cars, that happened 10 years ago. But others' needs will differ.

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
GRA said:
Because no current BEV has yet to meet the requirements that any number of ICEs have been able to meet for decades.
Since BEVs have a number of advantages over ICEVs, strict dominance in capabilities in not a reasonable standard to hold BEVs to. All that is required is for the BEVs' advantages to outweigh their disadvantages, relative to ICEVs. Depending on how heavily you weight the lack of distributed pollution from BEVs, the point at which BEVs surpass ICEVs will come sooner or later. For me, for passenger cars, that happened 10 years ago. But others' needs will differ.

Cheers, Wayne


That's the point: other's needs will differ, and they'll weight accordingly. As of this year, 10.5 years after mass production BEVs became available, 97.5% of U.S. new car customers don't consider BEV (or PHEV) advantages outweigh their disadvantages, despite large bribes, so they buy an ICE or an HEV; most don't much care about pollution unless it negatively affects them in an obvious and serious way. What they obviously do care about is cost and capability - BEVs still fall short in both areas for the typical buyer. While my usage and motivations are atypical, my requirements are more representative of mainstream buyers than the small self-selected % of the population (over-represented here) who've decided that current BEVs meet their requirements.
 
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