The 40KWH Battery Topic

danrjones said:

HerdingElectrons said:

SalemCat said:

As of today, my 2018 SV (with options), 15K miles, is displaying 168 Miles.

Of course, I now realize that means mebe 100 IRL, but still good.

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Huh??? Maybe in 28F weather but I have also seen 168miles on the GOM and have used over 150 of those said miles in a single day so my personal experience is you are being extremely conservative in your range estimation

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It all has to do with what your driving includes. If I don't leave town, 150 is probably doable.
But on the highway, I concur with the previous poster, 100 to 110 is all you will get.

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Although I never tailgate, stop for yellow lights, stop at every stop sign, often let other drivers into the flow when I can, and rarely use the Leaf's actual brake, when it comes to accelerating and highway speeds I am agressive.

I love the torque the motor can deliver, and enjoy the total lack of noise and drama at 70 MPH.

So my mileage range suffers accordingly.

Interesting that this heavy 40 Leaf driver (180K KM and counting with 12 bars) feels the GOM and range are better than what the SoH shows (~83.5%) on LS.

Certainly all anecdotal, but I have been feeling that way this summer as well with both Leafs still showing well above EPA, and able to cover epa ranges or better at highway speeds, in spite of SoH on my cars being down 7ish %. Total gids and aHr seems to be in line with SoH though.

https://youtu.be/mqzkONn5Ugo

DougWantsALeaf said:

Interesting that this heavy 40 Leaf driver (180K KM and counting with 12 bars) feels the GOM and range are better than what the SoH shows (~83.5%) on LS.

Certainly all anecdotal, but I have been feeling that way this summer as well with both Leafs still showing well above EPA, and able to cover epa ranges or better at highway speeds, in spite of SoH on my cars being down 7ish %. Total gids and aHr seems to be in line with SoH though.

https://youtu.be/mqzkONn5Ugo

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Same. Despite last adjustment loss of .8%, I still drove 212 miles and had 60 miles left per LEAF Spy when I plugged in. A/C running 100% of the time including two rest area stops to pee. Son in car so left car running while I was gone. Short stops just 5-10 minutes each but long enough to do my business and stretch my legs a bit.

My updated data as of yesterday:

ODO: 10712 miles
SOH: 87.47%
AHr: 100.98
Hx: 102.47

Still full bars.

DaveinOlyWA said:

Same. Despite last adjustment loss of .8%, I still drove 212 miles and had 60 miles left per LEAF Spy when I plugged in. A/C running 100% of the time including two rest area stops to pee. Son in car so left car running while I was gone. Short stops just 5-10 minutes each but long enough to do my business and stretch my legs a bit.

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It seems as if the SOH isn't a good measure of the remaining capacity of the Leaf's battery, but rather the health of the pack, which can contain multiple variables:
- cell balance
- internal resistance (which increases with age and use?)
- remaining capacity

If that's the case, then a lower SOH doesn't necessarily mean much capacity loss, but could mean that your internal resistance has increased, which leads to more heat going into the pack with large charge/discharge currents. Weaker cells or lower total capacity would also mean less useful range, but just an increase in internal resistance doesn't influence your range that much, it just heats the pack up a bit more and loses some energy doing that. That in turn means that rapid charging is even less advisable.

It seems as if the SOH isn't a good measure of the remaining capacity of the Leaf's battery, but rather the health of the pack, which can contain multiple variables:
- cell balance
- internal resistance (which increases with age and use?)
- remaining capacity

If that's the case, then a lower SOH doesn't necessarily mean much capacity loss,

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No, SOH correlates very well with remaining capacity. Some people seize on small discrepancies, or note that the Gen II Leaf seems to use a programmed loss algorithm, but all in all it works as well as anything else in the Leaf information signals.

GroenBlad said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

Same. Despite last adjustment loss of .8%, I still drove 212 miles and had 60 miles left per LEAF Spy when I plugged in. A/C running 100% of the time including two rest area stops to pee. Son in car so left car running while I was gone. Short stops just 5-10 minutes each but long enough to do my business and stretch my legs a bit.

Click to expand...

It seems as if the SOH isn't a good measure of the remaining capacity of the Leaf's battery, but rather the health of the pack, which can contain multiple variables:
- cell balance
- internal resistance (which increases with age and use?)
- remaining capacity

If that's the case, then a lower SOH doesn't necessarily mean much capacity loss, but could mean that your internal resistance has increased, which leads to more heat going into the pack with large charge/discharge currents. Weaker cells or lower total capacity would also mean less useful range, but just an increase in internal resistance doesn't influence your range that much, it just heats the pack up a bit more and loses some energy doing that. That in turn means that rapid charging is even less advisable.

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uummm? Hmmm.... yeah...well, maybe.

It would seem like the new BMS is treating SOH like your dr does. Its like the BMS dropping the SOH during these 90 day adjustments (on Gen two ONLY) is like saying "if you continue along this path..."

On my Gen 2's, I have gotten large drops, small drops, no drops and increases. As we know, an increase isn't possible but as a general statement of health, an increase "is" possible because its more a prediction of the future and less about current conditions.

Now, what we don't want to do is read more into our recent actions than we should. Its normal and well documented that early on, drops are big and slow down as the pack gets "broken in" so its all about getting over that quick big drop and determining how our actions are affecting the pack longevity.

There are still no clear answers yet. Not enough data and weak user responses makes it difficult. We have Gen 2's approaching 150,000 miles with 12 bars. Only one has reported losing a bar at 98,000 miles (and nearly 2,000 DC charges) but even those impressive numbers aren't that impressive. The Gen 2 should go to or near 200,000 miles before losing a bar. We have a 2015 24 kwh LEAFer in WA who went over 150,000 miles with 12 bars. That is impressive.

Someone with nearly double his capacity? Just average...

If the 98K 1700 DC charge 3 1/2 year old 40kWh Leaf is the downside outlier, then we are still pretty good. If it becomes the normal than overall less good.

We won't know for 3-4 more years.

DougWantsALeaf said:

If the 98K 1700 DC charge 3 1/2 year old 40kWh Leaf is the downside outlier, then we are still pretty good. If it becomes the normal than overall less good.

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Are you using 'normal' to imply the average in a binomial distribution ?
Give the outsized effect of local climate on the LEAF battery, there is no good reason to think that 'normal' has utility.

SageBrush said:

DougWantsALeaf said:

If the 98K 1700 DC charge 3 1/2 year old 40kWh Leaf is the downside outlier, then we are still pretty good. If it becomes the normal than overall less good.

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Are you using 'normal' to imply the average in a binomial distribution ?
Give the outsized effect of local climate on the LEAF battery, there is no good reason to think that 'normal' has utility.

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There is currently minimal (if any) evidence that gen 2 packs fare better in milder climates. We have a member here from Phoenix who posts his battery stats monthly. He is in the normal range. Granted its a single data point with who knows what margin of error and he has habits that generally don't lend to longevity. I guess we'll just have to continue to wait and see.

FYI; on previous packs, the effect of warmer climates were pretty obvious well before 2 full years.

Dave

That's a good point. With both Lettuce and Wolf packs, we had strong evidence 3 years in that hot climates were killers. I dont know if we can say yet if gen 2 is better than Lizard or not in either hot or cold climate; though anecdotal evidence suggests at least as good in hot climates. It will take 3 more years to have a view point on colder/mild climates.

^^ LOL you two

You think physics goes away with a bigger pack ?

And do you think that chemistry goes away as size increases...?

I think neither. What I do think is size does matter because my 50% increase in range did not come with a 50% increase in need. So, again I will say the biggest issue facing EVers who were disappointed is they were buying cars that covered their needs and nothing more. So a little bit of degradation immediately caused issues.

I still see it; Facebook produces DOZENS of posts everyday of people asking the same questions and getting mostly the same answers

"I have a 50 mile RT commute and this car has 80 miles of range. Will this work?"

and half without asking what type of commute, location, etc will answer "yep, same commute been doing it for 2 years without issue in XX LEAF..."

But we know that doesnt even qualify as a half truth. My rule; buy something that does double your need, more if you have the money.

DaveinOlyWA said:

So a little bit of degradation immediately caused issues.

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You missed your calling. Politician suits you

I think neither.

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I was directing that to Sagebrush, not to you, Dave.

DaveinOlyWA said:

I think neither. What I do think is size does matter because my 50% increase in range did not come with a 50% increase in need. So, again I will say the biggest issue facing EVers who were disappointed is they were buying cars that covered their needs and nothing more. So a little bit of degradation immediately caused issues.

... My rule; buy something that does double your need, more if you have the money.

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We did precisely that - took advantage of generous incentives to buy way more battery that we'll ever need for how we use this car.

Q: How long will the battery last?
A1: Not sure I care much. I have way more battery than I expect to need during the time I expect to own this car, even in winter, even after expected worst case degradation.
A2: Long enough for much better batteries to likely become available at a justifiable price (future circumstances tbd, but trends are encouraging).
A3: Likely long enough, but if not, then the warranty will kick in before I reach a point where the car no longer meets my use case.

Absent the incentives we had, buying this car might have meant taking on some financial risk. Given those incentives, however, that risk was certainly no greater than for an equivalent ICE car, and *almost* certainly much, much lower.

Here are the latest stats for my 2018. It did get a small 3 month update about a week or two back, where it went up, but only a little.
End of Aug it was at SOH 87.36 and then on Sep 4th is was at 87.69

So not a huge jump, but up is better than down! Also my daily loss of 0.01 (or even 0.02) from the hot summer days is starting to slow, so hopefully I won't lose that first bar this winter. Plan is still to trade it in for something longer ranged this winter. I am proud to say my HX is VERY low compared to some of you! :lol:

As of yesterday:

AHr: 101.17
SOH: 87.64
Hx: 101.58
SOC:60.3
Vol: 361.41
16 mV cell diff

ODO: 11,142 mi
QC: 17
L1/L2: 530

This is in Spanish, but very interesting analysis of 40kWh packs of different usage.

Even more interesting is that the eNV200 faired no better even though it has AC cooling of the battery.

https://medium.com/@eTaxidriver/an%C3%A1lisis-de-las-bater%C3%ADas-de-nissan-leaf-40-kwh-tras-36-meses-f8aaec93eb59

danrjones said:

Here are the latest stats for my 2018. It did get a small 3 month update about a week or two back, where it went up, but only a little.
End of Aug it was at SOH 87.36 and then on Sep 4th is was at 87.69

So not a huge jump, but up is better than down! Also my daily loss of 0.01 (or even 0.02) from the hot summer days is starting to slow, so hopefully I won't lose that first bar this winter. Plan is still to trade it in for something longer ranged this winter. I am proud to say my HX is VERY low compared to some of you! :lol:

As of yesterday:

AHr: 101.17
SOH: 87.64
Hx: 101.58
SOC:60.3
Vol: 361.41
16 mV cell diff

ODO: 11,142 mi
QC: 17
L1/L2: 530

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Will be interesting to see how your pack progresses. I have a friend with a 2018 whose stats are almost in lock step with your except Hx.

He sends me LEAF Spy data monthly and just got his yesterday

ahr 101.56
SOH 87.98
Hx 76.62
odo 84,137
QC 123
L2 2709