The 62kWh Battery Topic

jlsoaz said:

in my view, Nissan should have introduced a competitive long-range Infiniti BEV in the early 2010s.

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With a hobbled battery, 40 kW CHAdeMO in urban areas but no long trip infrastructure ?

That does not even pass the sniff test. I've said this before, and I will here: when average consumers think a company needs their strategic advice, that company is in deep doodoo. And by the time you and I know what they did wrong, so does everybody else, including the company.

It is easy now to say that every company should have done a Tesla, but it was not so long ago that 'common wisdom' was positive that Tesla was weeks away from fading into the sunset. All these giants of prophecy lacked vision, but they were not wrong in realizing that Tesla took on a huge gamble. Musk has said the same many times. I bought my Tesla because it is an outstanding EV that let me go ICE free, and to support the Tesla vision. And we should not kid ourselves -- the Tesla vision *needed* support from consumers willing to take on some degree of risk in buying the car.

And that brings up another difference between Tesla and LEAF buyers, in a very broad stroke kind of way: Tesla owners support a vision. I can see how that can annoy people fixated on rationalizing their fiat by monthly payment approach to life.

I used to believe in that Vision Thing, until it became clear that it included working assembly line workers into the ground and exposing them to COVID 19. It now appears to me to be more of an Ego Trip than a desire to change the world for the better.

It is hard to know which way to go. tesla went for the wealthy people with their roadster in that lotus body and Nissan went for the average person with charging mainly at dealers. Tesla early on did a better job building charging infrastracture than Nissan did with their dealers and cooperation with Evgo but the cars were unaffordable and how long would Tesla be around? These days Tesla did well and Nissan as a whole is much more shaky but that was not clear back then.

On the other hand when the first LEAF came out I kept thinking about it but could not make it work. My commute (going to work then back home) was more than the range, I had no charging at work so I could not even drive to work let alone to the mountains. I wanted an EV but I also only wanted one car at the time and I could find no use for it so I ended up getting a Prius after my 20 year old Honda got totalled. So yea the first LEAF was of no use to many. These days I am so pleased with 200+ mile EVs and lots of charging infrastructure, many EVs can drive across country now the LEAF gets very slow charging after a while with repeated DCFCs but even it can take you a couple DCFCs distance without much trouble.

Elon is certainly tied up in his ego and while I find it offputting it works for some people much like Steve Jobs did. I do suspect Elon did have a vision of electrifying cars helping the planet AND building himself up. You can be both at the same time. He can not care about workers but care to about city emissions. he is also trying to figure out how to keep his company solvent. Basically it is not all black and white as we'd like.

He can not care about workers but care to about city emissions.

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???

He can not care about individuals under him in order to achieve a larger goal.

salyavin said:

He can not care about individuals under him in order to achieve a larger goal.

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Wow. This is loaded with so many issues I don't know where to begin.

His "vision" is so important that he "can not care about" his employees? Sounds like Colonial America right after the first slave ship arrived...

Coming back to the Leaf+ battery..

I saw my first increase in battery health yesterday, according to LeafSpy. I only check every 2-4 weeks, so it may have happened a little earlier. It is probably a coincidence, but yesterday was also the first time I ran the battery down to ---%, and relied on LeafSpy to make sure I could make it to the fast charger. It looks like the increase was 0.5 aHr, after just under 19,000 miles and 72 weeks of ownership. That puts me at 166.73 aHr, or 94.52% SoH. My wife uses the Leaf for commuting, and she usually plugs in at home if the state of charge is below 50%, and always charges to 100%.

Sorry about that. I or another Mod will move those posts to a Tesla topic later.

Great to hear about an increase and around 94%, rather than the 91-92% seen on the 40 packs.

Dave, maybe your theory will hold up.

Astros said:

Coming back to the Leaf+ battery..

I saw my first increase in battery health yesterday, according to LeafSpy. I only check every 2-4 weeks, so it may have happened a little earlier. It is probably a coincidence, but yesterday was also the first time I ran the battery down to ---%, and relied on LeafSpy to make sure I could make it to the fast charger. It looks like the increase was 0.5 aHr, after just under 19,000 miles and 72 weeks of ownership. That puts me at 166.73 aHr, or 94.52% SoH. My wife uses the Leaf for commuting, and she usually plugs in at home if the state of charge is below 50%, and always charges to 100%.

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Well, that is simply awesome! and a bit strange as well. Kinda makes you think the BMS is manipulating the data?

I figure I probably have one or two drop adjustments before I see a rise.

salyavin said:

It is hard to know which way to go. tesla went for the wealthy people with their roadster in that lotus body and Nissan went for the average person with charging mainly at dealers. Tesla early on did a better job building charging infrastracture than Nissan did with their dealers and cooperation with Evgo but the cars were unaffordable and how long would Tesla be around? These days Tesla did well and Nissan as a whole is much more shaky but that was not clear back then.

On the other hand when the first LEAF came out I kept thinking about it but could not make it work. My commute (going to work then back home) was more than the range, I had no charging at work so I could not even drive to work let alone to the mountains. I wanted an EV but I also only wanted one car at the time and I could find no use for it so I ended up getting a Prius after my 20 year old Honda got totalled. So yea the first LEAF was of no use to many. These days I am so pleased with 200+ mile EVs and lots of charging infrastructure, many EVs can drive across country now the LEAF gets very slow charging after a while with repeated DCFCs but even it can take you a couple DCFCs distance without much trouble.

Elon is certainly tied up in his ego and while I find it offputting it works for some people much like Steve Jobs did. I do suspect Elon did have a vision of electrifying cars helping the planet AND building himself up. You can be both at the same time. He can not care about workers but care to about city emissions. he is also trying to figure out how to keep his company solvent. Basically it is not all black and white as we'd like.

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Some decent points here, IMO.

As to the decision to go after luxury and sports-performance buyers rather than buyers oriented toward environmental and financial conservation, I have to admit I didn't fully buy Tesla's answer in 2007, and their first attempt at sales did not seem to sell particularly well (though one had to admire that they executed where no one else did). Still, over time, and particularly starting with Model S Sales in 2012, I think they have been vindicated.

Still, I also didn't fully buy Nissan's answer in 2010; I was concerned when I saw Nissan seeming to buy too much into the "commuters only travel thus far" thinking. That was an argument that some of us used in the late 90s when it was so clear that automakers were going to drag their feet, and I think it's an argument that got overdone. Nissan was almost the only automaker to focus on as they were almost the only one to seem at the time to want ingenuously to go past compliance car considerations with a BEV, but I thought at the time, and still think, that their middle ground answer of going for the economically-minded and environmentally-minded buyers primarily, was tragically flawed..... not quite as badly as the blatantly disrespectful tiny econocar short-range BEV compliance-car efforts that were not going to sell very well in the US, but still, not what it should have been, if they really wanted to make money and build business (IMO).

As to your points about Musk and the mixed bag of trying to formulate a view of what he was or was not accomplishing, personally I took your point. He has been anything from a low-life who needlessly cuts corners on worker safety to being just about the only executive outside of China who had the vision back in the day, .... willing to make difficult executive decisions and take the heat and keep a good EV company going in the face of overwhelming petty ankle-biting global criticism that was ready to pounce at every step and declare the EV hypothesis dead.

jlsoaz said:

buyers oriented toward environmental and financial conservation,

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What does that mean, exactly, in 2013 ?

Perhaps ...
Not econobox
All the creature comforts of competing ICE cars
Under $10k
200 mile range

I think you should look up the cost of batteries in 2020, let alone 2013.

Forum

My adjustment should complete by tomorrow, but had to post on the progress so far on our 2019 SV+ purchased June 2019 built May 2019. I had noticed range feeling a little perkier than normal, but hadn't thought too much about it.

Ahr went up!!!
From 166.36. TO 167.51. (+1.15 Ahr)
SoH from 94.29 to 94.96% (+.67%)


Have to wait one more day, but fairly excited so far. We have 9400 miles on the car, only putting on 500 miles a month recently. We have been driving less the last 5 months for obvious reason.

I have 100% charged the car 2 or 3 times this quarter, unlike last quarter, so I do wonder of it is positive to stretch the full battery now and then.

DougWantsALeaf said:

Forum

My adjustment should complete by tomorrow, but had to post on the progress so far on our 2019 SV+ purchased June 2019 built May 2019. I had noticed range feeling a little perkier than normal, but hadn't thought too much about it.

Ahr went up!!!
From 166.36. TO 167.51. (+1.15 Ahr)
SoH from 94.29 to 94.96% (+.67%)


Have to wait one more day, but fairly excited so far. We have 9400 miles on the car, only putting on 500 miles a month recently. We have been driving less the last 5 months for obvious reason.

I have 100% charged the car 2 or 3 times this quarter, unlike last quarter, so I do wonder of it is positive to stretch the full battery now and then.

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Well, looks like your BMS is smiling favorably upon you. Wondering how much the pack is playing along?

Your case does present a new data point. Low usage normally meant higher degradation more often than not.

The car is driven most days, but usually 10-20 miles over 4-5 short trips.

This quarter I have been trying to do more short charging cycles, keeping the csr between 45 and 75% the vast majority of the time.

S+ is due for its cycle in a week and 1/2.

DougWantsALeaf said:

The car is driven most days, but usually 10-20 miles over 4-5 short trips.

This quarter I have been trying to do more short charging cycles, keeping the csr between 45 and 75% the vast majority of the time.

S+ is due for its cycle in a week and 1/2.

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Ahh, maybe that is the the trick. I have been doing the same with mine but at a lower level. There was a study that came out suggesting lower SOCs for long term storage was better so I reasoned this would apply even if car is used daily so my SOC has been running between 20 and 65%.

I did run it down to 10% yesterday but only because did a couple hikes so went just over 100 miles for the day which is 2-3X more than my recent daily average. But I think I will keep the SOC low for now due to higher than normal temps. I stopped last night's charge at 35% when highest batt temp hit 95º. I figure I will add a bit more today. This morning ºbatts were back down to 75

I like restoring the battery to 65-70% just so I have range to do any unforseen trips to Milwaukee. (About 150 miles round trip)

SageBrush said:

jlsoaz said:

buyers oriented toward environmental and financial conservation,

Click to expand...

What does that mean, exactly, in 2013 ?

Perhaps ...
Not econobox
All the creature comforts of competing ICE cars
Under $10k
200 mile range

Click to expand...

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

SageBrush said:

I think you should look up the cost of batteries in 2020, let alone 2013.

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jlsoaz said:

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

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I'm asking you to specify the EV that would have met your 'financial and environmental conservation' standard in 2013:

Price
Performance
Range
Amenities
Size

SageBrush said:

jlsoaz said:

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Click to expand...

I'm asking you to specify the EV that would have met your 'financial and environmental conservation' standard in 2013:

Price
Performance
Range
Amenities
Size

Click to expand...

Ok, well, thanks for making it more clear.

[edited] To move on to the question: I'm not sure why you would be asking this. Have I said (or even thought) that the task any accomplished the task at that time? No, I haven't. On the contrary, I am trying to get across that there is a great untalked-about here, which is that the companies who went after that task, including Nissan, did not (in my view) have as strong reasoning behind this push as sometimes seems to be accepted in EV conversations here and there. Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm not a fan of the effort to try to go after the econocar-buying ($15-$25k gasoline equivalent) vehicle addressable market with $40k short-range BEVs. I don't know if I always saw this fully and clearly at the time as there were a lot of moving parts to the discussions, and the American market had been artificially starved of a robust selection of any BEVs at all. To some extent it still is, though clearly that's evolved a bit.