WetEV
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Re: GCR: Could an "electric fuel" tax for EV use help states solve the gas-tax dilemma?

Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:32 pm

Nubo wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:13 pm
Gasoline or road tax perhaps made sense in the early 20th century when vehicle ownership was a rarity and nice paved roads were seen as a perk for the well-to-do. Today everyone depends upon and benefits from the road and highway infrastructure, regardless of how much time they do or do not spend driving a car.
Taxing road users for the upkeep of roads is an old idea, going back to at least the 12th Century, and perhaps before.

Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, 1776, argues for a tax based on weight, and for a higher rate on luxury travelers.
When the carriages which pass over a highway or a bridge, and the lighters which sail upon a navigable canal, pay toll in proportion to their weight or their tonnage, they pay for the maintenance of those public works exactly in proportion to the wear and tear which they occasion of them. It seems scarce possible to invent a more equitable way of maintaining such works. This tax or toll too, though it is advanced by the carrier, is finally paid by the consumer, to whom it must always be charged in the price of the goods. As the expense of carriage, however, is very much reduced by means of such public works, the goods, notwithstanding the toll come cheaper to the consumer than the; could otherwise have done; their price not being so much raised by the toll as it is lowered by the cheapness
of the carriage. The person who finally pays this tax, therefore, gains by the application more than he loses by the payment of it. His payment is exactly in proportion to his gain. It is in reality no more than a part of that gain which he is obliged to give up in order to get the rest. It seems impossible to imagine a more equitable method of raising a tax. When the toll upon carriages of luxury upon coaches, post-chaises, etc., is made somewhat higher in proportion to their weight than upon carriages of necessary use, such as carts, waggons, etc., the indolence and vanity of the rich is made to contribute in a very easy manner to the relief of the poor, by rendering cheaper the transportation of heavy goods to all the different parts of the country.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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Nubo
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Re: GCR: Could an "electric fuel" tax for EV use help states solve the gas-tax dilemma?

Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:57 pm

WetEV wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:32 pm
Nubo wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:13 pm
Gasoline or road tax perhaps made sense in the early 20th century when vehicle ownership was a rarity and nice paved roads were seen as a perk for the well-to-do. Today everyone depends upon and benefits from the road and highway infrastructure, regardless of how much time they do or do not spend driving a car.
Taxing road users for the upkeep of roads is an old idea, going back to at least the 12th Century, and perhaps before.
Exactly. I omitted turnpikes and bridge trolls in the interest of brevity in describing the anachronism.

Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, 1776, argues for a tax based on weight, and for a higher rate on luxury travelers.
When the carriages which pass over a highway or a bridge, and the lighters which sail upon a navigable canal, pay toll in proportion to their weight or their tonnage, they pay for the maintenance of those public works exactly in proportion to the wear and tear which they occasion of them. It seems scarce possible to invent a more equitable way of maintaining such works. This tax or toll too, though it is advanced by the carrier, is finally paid by the consumer, to whom it must always be charged in the price of the goods. As the expense of carriage, however, is very much reduced by means of such public works, the goods, notwithstanding the toll come cheaper to the consumer than the; could otherwise have done; their price not being so much raised by the toll as it is lowered by the cheapness
of the carriage. The person who finally pays this tax, therefore, gains by the application more than he loses by the payment of it. His payment is exactly in proportion to his gain. It is in reality no more than a part of that gain which he is obliged to give up in order to get the rest. It seems impossible to imagine a more equitable method of raising a tax. When the toll upon carriages of luxury upon coaches, post-chaises, etc., is made somewhat higher in proportion to their weight than upon carriages of necessary use, such as carts, waggons, etc., the indolence and vanity of the rich is made to contribute in a very easy manner to the relief of the poor, by rendering cheaper the transportation of heavy goods to all the different parts of the country.
[/quote]
With all due respect to the Invisible Hand, Smith discounts that the whole of society benefits from the public works and not just those involved directly at any particular point in time. For a road to be there when you need it, it must also exist while you don't need it.
If social equity is a goal, adjusting the general tax code is a far sharper instrument than vehicle weight. And certainly far better than taxing consumption of gasoline which tends to be regressive in this day and age.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

WetEV
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Re: GCR: Could an "electric fuel" tax for EV use help states solve the gas-tax dilemma?

Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:24 pm

Nubo wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:57 pm
With all due respect to the Invisible Hand, Smith discounts that the whole of society benefits from the public works and not just those involved directly at any particular point in time. For a road to be there when you need it, it must also exist while you don't need it.
If social equity is a goal, adjusting the general tax code is a far sharper instrument than vehicle weight. And certainly far better than taxing consumption of gasoline which tends to be regressive in this day and age.
Oddly, you might want to read more Adam Smith.
The expense of maintaining good roads and communications is, no doubt, beneficial to the whole society, and may, therefore, without any injustice. be defrayed by the general contribution of the whole society.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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jjeff
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Re: GCR: Could an "electric fuel" tax for EV use help states solve the gas-tax dilemma?

Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:03 pm

Nubo wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 12:13 pm
...Today everyone depends upon and benefits from the road and highway infrastructure, regardless of how much time they do or do not spend driving a car.
Agree and for those who don't drive a car, they purchase goods and rely on services driven on roads. The only thing with no road tax, I wonder is how society could have dis-incentives for large(both HP and weight) polluting/inefficient vehicles(or maybe there isn't a need to??).......maybe make tabs for vehicles based not only on original MSRP(as my state does) but also take into account weight, which my state doesn't for anything under 1-ton payload?. In my state, 3/4 ton pickups are taxed like cars, just on value but 1-ton and above have more expensive tabs.
We don't have toll roads in MN so I'm not sure how to handle them, I can kind of see a toll road for say a bridge that only goes to a limited number of people but for through-fairs, it seems more an annoyance than anything else, I wonder just how much of the money goes to the roads vs how much goes to the bureaucracy involved in collecting and counting the money.....
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Re: GCR: Could an "electric fuel" tax for EV use help states solve the gas-tax dilemma?

Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:29 pm

WetEV wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:24 pm
Nubo wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:57 pm
With all due respect to the Invisible Hand, Smith discounts that the whole of society benefits from the public works and not just those involved directly at any particular point in time. For a road to be there when you need it, it must also exist while you don't need it.
If social equity is a goal, adjusting the general tax code is a far sharper instrument than vehicle weight. And certainly far better than taxing consumption of gasoline which tends to be regressive in this day and age.
Oddly, you might want to read more Adam Smith.
The expense of maintaining good roads and communications is, no doubt, beneficial to the whole society, and may, therefore, without any injustice. be defrayed by the general contribution of the whole society.
I was responding to the previous quote you posted ("...impossible to imagine a more equitable method of raising a tax"). That he contradicts himself elsewhere is good.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

WetEV
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Re: GCR: Could an "electric fuel" tax for EV use help states solve the gas-tax dilemma?

Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:55 pm

Nubo wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:29 pm
WetEV wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:24 pm
Nubo wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:57 pm
With all due respect to the Invisible Hand, Smith discounts that the whole of society benefits from the public works and not just those involved directly at any particular point in time. For a road to be there when you need it, it must also exist while you don't need it.
If social equity is a goal, adjusting the general tax code is a far sharper instrument than vehicle weight. And certainly far better than taxing consumption of gasoline which tends to be regressive in this day and age.
Oddly, you might want to read more Adam Smith.
The expense of maintaining good roads and communications is, no doubt, beneficial to the whole society, and may, therefore, without any injustice. be defrayed by the general contribution of the whole society.
I was responding to the previous quote you posted ("...impossible to imagine a more equitable method of raising a tax"). That he contradicts himself elsewhere is good.
Most good economists have two hands. Or more. :roll:
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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