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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:19 pm
by SageBrush
GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote: And anyone else's isn't?
Correct.

Lots of forecasters recognize that the growth is geometric rather than linear.
And ...
Wind and Solar

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:01 pm
by GRA
SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote: Correct.

Lots of forecasters recognize that the growth is geometric rather than linear.
And ...
Wind and Solar
Uh huh, both are far behind many forecasts of where they would be by now. Now that they are generally cost-effective, there's always the possibility that shortages of of raw materials or other issues will further disrupt/delay their "inevitable" exponential growth, just as has happened with every other energy source to date. You name it, oil, natural gas, hydro, nukes, biofuels, wind, solar, tidal, wave, OTEC, everything since coal replaced biomass as the dominant energy source has suffered such disruptions and made lies of the long-term forecasts.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:06 pm
by SageBrush
GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote: And ...
Wind and Solar
Uh huh, both are far behind many forecasts of where they would be by now.
And there is always someone fatter and someone over-optimistic.
But both energy solutions have had geometric growth curves for a decade now while those agencies keep plotting linear growth.

That is the point.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:43 pm
by GRA
SageBrush wrote:
GRA wrote:
SageBrush wrote: Wind and Solar
Uh huh, both are far behind many forecasts of where they would be by now.
And there is always someone fatter and someone over-optimistic.
But both energy solutions have had geometric growth curves for a decade now while those agencies keep plotting linear growth.

That *is* the point.
Sure they have had exponential growth just as other sources have, and they will until something disrupts them or they reach maturity and we see an S-curve), and the curve turns linear or flat for a while, until it starts climbing again (we assume, if nothing else develops to replace them). Who knows, maybe fusion will finally stop forever being 20 years in the future. I'm just glad they're now mostly cost-competitive with coal, and in some cases even NG.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:22 pm
by GRA
US, Europe and Japan to cooperate on hydrogen and fuel cell technologies
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/0 ... 21-h2.html
On the sidelines of the G20 Ministerial Meeting on Energy Transitions and Global Environment for Sustainable Growth, US Deputy Secretary of Energy Dan Brouillette; Japan’s Minister of Economy, Trade, and Industry Hiroshige Seko; and European Union Commissioner for Climate Action and Energy Miguel Cañete signed a joint statement of future cooperation on hydrogen and fuel cell technologies. . . .

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:46 pm
by GRA
GCR:
The godfather of EVs in China has turned his attention to hydrogen cars
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... rogen-cars
It's no accident that nearly half of the world's electric cars on the road today are in China. According to the International Energy Agency, of the 1.9 million battery electric vehicles on the road, 951 million are found in China.

Wan Gang had a lot to do with that. The former Audi exec is now China's state science and technology chief and helped launch the country's aggressive push toward zero-emission vehicles after he delivered a report in 2000 outlining the country's need to develop an electric-car industry. China heavily subsidized that industry and helped push the world toward electrification.

Now, Wan may have his sights set on hydrogen-powered vehicles. Wan told Bloomberg last week that the benefits of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles would benefit long-haul transportation: buses, trucks, etc.

“We should look into establishing a hydrogen society,” he told Bloomberg. “We need to move further toward fuel cells.”

His opinion carries more than its weight in mere words. Wan said the country may keep in place its subsidies for fuel-cell development, even if battery electric car incentives wane. China's nascent hydrogen fuel cell market is much smaller than Japan's, which leads the world in hydrogen adoption. But that may change if China's government can spur growth for hydrogen fuel cells through incentives the same way they have for EVs in the last 20 years. . . .

According to the U.S. Department of Energy, China had 12 hydrogen refueling stations in operation in May 2018 compared to more than 100 in Japan who has stated that it aims to have roughly 200 by the end of next year.

Wan says the country will move toward building more infrastructure to support hydrogen-powered vehicles.

“We will sort out the factors that have been hindering the development of fuel-cell vehicles,” Wan told Bloomberg.

If China's push toward hydrogen matches its push toward electrification that could net a seismic change for the industry within the next 15 years.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:06 pm
by Oils4AsphaultOnly
GRA wrote:GCR:
The godfather of EVs in China has turned his attention to hydrogen cars
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... rogen-cars
It's no accident that nearly half of the world's electric cars on the road today are in China. According to the International Energy Agency, of the 1.9 million battery electric vehicles on the road, 951 million are found in China.

Wan Gang had a lot to do with that. The former Audi exec is now China's state science and technology chief and helped launch the country's aggressive push toward zero-emission vehicles after he delivered a report in 2000 outlining the country's need to develop an electric-car industry. China heavily subsidized that industry and helped push the world toward electrification.

Now, Wan may have his sights set on hydrogen-powered vehicles. Wan told Bloomberg last week that the benefits of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles would benefit long-haul transportation: buses, trucks, etc.

“We should look into establishing a hydrogen society,” he told Bloomberg. “We need to move further toward fuel cells.”

His opinion carries more than its weight in mere words. Wan said the country may keep in place its subsidies for fuel-cell development, even if battery electric car incentives wane. China's nascent hydrogen fuel cell market is much smaller than Japan's, which leads the world in hydrogen adoption. But that may change if China's government can spur growth for hydrogen fuel cells through incentives the same way they have for EVs in the last 20 years. . . .

According to the U.S. Department of Energy, China had 12 hydrogen refueling stations in operation in May 2018 compared to more than 100 in Japan who has stated that it aims to have roughly 200 by the end of next year.

Wan says the country will move toward building more infrastructure to support hydrogen-powered vehicles.

“We will sort out the factors that have been hindering the development of fuel-cell vehicles,” Wan told Bloomberg.

If China's push toward hydrogen matches its push toward electrification that could net a seismic change for the industry within the next 15 years.
Good luck with that! Sounds like non-committal promises in a land of technocrats. BYD already has a substantial product line in the BEV bus and trucks segment. Once China figures out the long term development and operating costs, you won't hear about it past the "development" phase.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:31 pm
by GRA
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
GRA wrote:GCR:
The godfather of EVs in China has turned his attention to hydrogen cars
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... rogen-cars
It's no accident that nearly half of the world's electric cars on the road today are in China. According to the International Energy Agency, of the 1.9 million battery electric vehicles on the road, 951 million are found in China.

Wan Gang had a lot to do with that. The former Audi exec is now China's state science and technology chief and helped launch the country's aggressive push toward zero-emission vehicles after he delivered a report in 2000 outlining the country's need to develop an electric-car industry. China heavily subsidized that industry and helped push the world toward electrification.

Now, Wan may have his sights set on hydrogen-powered vehicles. Wan told Bloomberg last week that the benefits of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles would benefit long-haul transportation: buses, trucks, etc.

“We should look into establishing a hydrogen society,” he told Bloomberg. “We need to move further toward fuel cells.”

His opinion carries more than its weight in mere words. Wan said the country may keep in place its subsidies for fuel-cell development, even if battery electric car incentives wane. China's nascent hydrogen fuel cell market is much smaller than Japan's, which leads the world in hydrogen adoption. But that may change if China's government can spur growth for hydrogen fuel cells through incentives the same way they have for EVs in the last 20 years. . . .

According to the U.S. Department of Energy, China had 12 hydrogen refueling stations in operation in May 2018 compared to more than 100 in Japan who has stated that it aims to have roughly 200 by the end of next year.

Wan says the country will move toward building more infrastructure to support hydrogen-powered vehicles.

“We will sort out the factors that have been hindering the development of fuel-cell vehicles,” Wan told Bloomberg.

If China's push toward hydrogen matches its push toward electrification that could net a seismic change for the industry within the next 15 years.
Good luck with that! Sounds like non-committal promises in a land of technocrats. BYD already has a substantial product line in the BEV bus and trucks segment. Once China figures out the long term development and operating costs, you won't hear about it past the "development" phase.
As has been noted in either this or the AFV commercial vehicles topics, Ballard has a major contract to supply stacks to a Chinese bus maker, and other companies are also moving into the field.

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:46 pm
by GRA
GCC:
France’s first refueling station for hydrogen buses opens
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/0 ... nceh2.html
. . . The SMT-AG has attributed to ENGIE, via its subsidiary GNVERT, the design, supply, installation and maintenance of the Houdain-Divion hydrogen gas distribution station. It will enable the refueling of six hydrogen buses that will be deployed on the new BHNS (High Level Service Bus) bus line connecting Bruay-La-Buissière and Auchel.

The project is equipped with McLyzer and McFilling technologies.

Clean hydrogen will be produced on site by electrolysis, from renewable electricity of certified French origin, before being distributed by the station. Fifteen minutes of refueling will give the buses more than 300 km of autonomy. . . .

In its current configuration, the McPhy station can produce and deliver more than 200 kg of clean hydrogen a day. Its capacity can be increased by 30% without changing the facility’s total surface area, if required by the SMT-AG’s future needs.
OTOH, also GCC:
Saudi Aramco and Air Products inaugurate Saudi Arabia’s first hydrogen fueling station
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/0 ... mcoh2.html
Saudi Aramco and Air Products recently inaugurated the first hydrogen fueling station in Saudi Arabia at Air Products’ new Technology Center in the Dhahran Techno Valley Science Park. The pilot station will fuel an initial fleet of six Toyota Mirai fuel cell electric vehicles with high-purity compressed hydrogen.
  • This pilot project represents an exciting opportunity for Saudi Aramco and Air Products to demonstrate the potential of hydrogen in the transport sector and its viability as a sustainable fuel for the future. Today’s milestone is an important step in making oil-to-hydrogen a reality as Saudi Aramco continues to be focused on creating breakthrough technologies and solutions as part of our long term efforts to reduce carbon emissions and address climate concerns.

    — Amin H. Nasser, President and CEO of Saudi Aramco. . . .
The data collected during the initial phase of this project will provide valuable information for the assessment of future applications of this emerging and diverse transport technology in the local environment.
While getting hands-on experience is useful, unless the plan is to eventually produce H2 from renewables it's pretty pointless. The Saudis do say that they plan to move to renewables: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saud ... SKCN1P918N

Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:01 pm
by GRA
GCC:
Bloom Energy announces hydrogen-powered energy servers to make always-on renewable electricity a reality
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/0 ... bloom.html
Bloom Energy, a developer of solid oxide fuel cell power generators, announced the ability of its Energy Servers to operate on renewable hydrogen. Current Bloom Energy Servers generate electricity using natural gas or biogas as fuel.

At peak times, some US states and countries already have more renewable power than their grids can handle. Despite those periods of excess wind and solar power, because the ability to store electricity for more than a few hours is lacking, dispatchable power from the combustion of fossil fuels continues to bridge gaps in supply.

In areas with large amounts of wind and solar power, excess renewables can be used to produce hydrogen from water via electrolysis. Such renewable hydrogen is becoming cheaper to produce and more readily available, and can be stored indefinitely where it is produced, or in large storage and pipeline networks like the natural gas system.

The ability to operate on renewable hydrogen means Bloom Energy Servers installed today to run on natural gas can be readily upgraded in situ to use renewable hydrogen in future. . . .

Bloom Energy Servers can operate on pure hydrogen or a combination of natural gas and hydrogen. As the availability of renewable hydrogen increases, it could also be blended into the natural gas pipeline network. The National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) has concluded that blending up to 15% hydrogen into the natural gas supply will not significantly impact household appliances, public safety, or the durability and integrity of the natural gas pipeline network.

Bloom Energy anticipates early demand for hydrogen-powered fuel cells in Asia, where hydrogen production and utilization are being actively developed by countries including France, Japan, Korea and Australia. . . .
Also GCC:
Cummins to acquire fuel-cell provider Hydrogenics
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/0 ... mmins.html
Cummins Inc. has entered into a definitive agreement to acquire, through a wholly-owned subsidiary, all the issued and outstanding shares of fuel-cell systems provider Hydrogenics Corporation for US$15.00 per share in cash, other than shares already owned by The Hydrogen Company, representing an enterprise value of approximately $290 million. . . .

As a part of the transaction, The Hydrogen Company, a wholly-owned subsidiary of L’Air Liquide, S.A., and Hydrogenics’ current largest equity shareholder, will maintain its ownership in Hydrogenics. . . .