GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:37 pm

All GCC:
Universal Hydrogen announces $20.5M in Series A funding to build and test full-scale hardware for hydrogen commercial aircraft
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... 3-uh2.html

. . . Universal Hydrogen is building a fuel distribution network that connects hydrogen production directly to the airplane using modular capsules that are transported using the existing freight network, avoiding the need for costly new pipelines, storage facilities, and fuel trucks.

The company is also developing conversion kits to retrofit existing 40-60 passenger regional airplanes with a hydrogen fuel cell powertrain.

First commercial flights are planned no later than 2025, with operating costs equivalent to those of conventional hydrocarbon-burning airplanes and decreasing rapidly thereafter. . . .

Toyota developing hydrogen combustion engine technologies through motorsports
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... oyota.html

Toyota Motor Corporation is developing a hydrogen combustion engine in an effort to move toward a carbon-neutral mobility society. It has installed the engine—a 1.6L in-line three-cylinder turbo with intercooler—on a racing vehicle based on Toyota’s Corolla Hatchback, which it will enter in competition under the ORC ROOKIE Racing banner.

The first race will be the Super Taikyu Series 2021 Powered by Hankook Round 3 NAPAC Fuji Super TEC 24 Hours Race on 21-23 May. . . .

thyssenkrupp to supply 20MW electrolysis plant to CF Industries for green hydrogen for green ammonia
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... krupp.html

thyssenkrupp has signed a contract with Illinois-based CF Industries to supply a 20 megawatt alkaline water electrolysis plant to produce green hydrogen at their Donaldsonville, Louisiana, manufacturing complex. The work is expected to begin in the second half of 2021 and finish in 2023.

CF Industries will integrate the carbon-free hydrogen generated by the electrolysis plant into existing ammonia synthesis loops to enable the production of 20,000 tons per year of green ammonia. When complete in 2023, the Donaldsonville green ammonia project will be the largest of its kind in North America. . . .

Bosch believes AIoT, electrification, and green hydrogen are the way forward; investing €1B in fuel cells to 2024
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... bosch.html

. . . Hydrogen megatrend: fuel-cell market worth billions. Bosch is also focusing on a growth market for the hydrogen megatrend: the company believes the market for green hydrogen in the EU will be worth almost €40 billion by 2030, with annual growth rates of 65%.

Bosch is developing both stationary and mobile fuel-cell solutions. From 2021 to 2024, Bosch plans to invest one billion euros in fuel-cell technology.

The plan is to put 100 stationary fuel-cell plants into operation this year. They will supply electricity to users such as data centers, industrial manufacturers, and residential areas. One stationary solid-oxide fuel cell, located in the center of Bamberg, Germany, was brought into operation at the end of March 2021 together with Stadtwerke Bamberg, the city’s public utilities.

Bosch estimates that the market for mobile fuel-cell components will be worth around €18 billion by the end of the decade. Bosch recently entered into a joint venture with China’s Qingling Motor Group to produce fuel-cell powertrains. A test fleet of 70 trucks is set to be on the roads before the end of this year. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Fri Apr 23, 2021 9:49 pm

Ford tried hydrogen combustion engines about 20 years ago, IIRC. And we were afraid that toxic used motor oil was a thing of the past! Kudos, Toyota, for never, ever being able to admit that you are wrong.
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Marktm
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:44 am

GRA wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:48 pm
^^^ I believe I've seen at least one such and posted a link a while back, but I'll be damned if I remember the source. Mostly it's been for individual components/areas. And of course, at the moment so much of the major cost reductions are projections rather than current costs and proprietary info isn't widely available, so high accuracy of overall costs at this point is not to be expected. I'll see if I can dig up something along the lines you want, but make no promises. In the meantime, you might check out this 2011 NREL cost analysis tool: https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/productio ... lysis.html

and the system analysis link: https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/systems-analysis.html

The latter includes links to a variety of reports, although the most recent is from 2018.
Looked into several of the papers and presentations - most between 6 and 12 years old. Likely economics look a little better now with electrolyser improvements. I could not find any analysis of a stand-alone, totally renewable based project. As the amount of electricity is so high for production of dense phase hydrogen, using grid energy (IMO) as some predicted price/kWh is not realistic for mass adoption of the technology. Building a wind/solar plant specifically matched to the H2 production requirements might be quite an eye-opener as the on-stream factors and resultant size of the entire H2 production/compression/storage must match the highly variable renewables generation capabilities - without some significant energy storage (would be batteries or recycle low pressure H2 as turbine fuel?). My guess is that this dog chasing it's tail will show to be very costly - especially if life-cycle of all systems involved are carefully analyzed. If Matt Mccall's prediction of solid-state batteries come to fruition, all this will be mute :mrgreen: (Not holding my breath!)
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GRA
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:48 pm

Marktm wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:44 am
Looked into several of the papers and presentations - most between 6 and 12 years old. Likely economics look a little better now with electrolyser improvements. I could not find any analysis of a stand-alone, totally renewable based project. As the amount of electricity is so high for production of dense phase hydrogen, using grid energy (IMO) as some predicted price/kWh is not realistic for mass adoption of the technology. Building a wind/solar plant specifically matched to the H2 production requirements might be quite an eye-opener as the on-stream factors and resultant size of the entire H2 production/compression/storage must match the highly variable renewables generation capabilities - without some significant energy storage (would be batteries or recycle low pressure H2 as turbine fuel?). My guess is that this dog chasing it's tail will show to be very costly - especially if life-cycle of all systems involved are carefully analyzed. If Matt Mccall's prediction of solid-state batteries come to fruition, all this will be mute :mrgreen: (Not holding my breath!)

Several of the articles on projects I've provided links to here are stand-alone.
The IRENA paper I mentioned said that one of the methods that will be used to deal with intermittency is modular electrolysers, bringing them on or taking them off-line as needed. I have no doubt they'll also make use of storage, - see below.

Renewable energy costs in good areas have gotten so low, at or below $0.02/kWh, that it doesn't seem to be a major issue. IIRR, Portuguese PV set a record last year at $13.1/MWh, i.e. 13.1¢/kWh. That's why countries like Chile, with excellent solar resources in the north (e g Atacama desert) and excellent wind approaching 50% CF in the south (Patagonia), as well as small populations, are looking to become major H2 exporters. Same goes for Australia.

The next most costly item is the electrolysers, and improvements in efficiency as well as increases in the operating hours and lifespan are expected to make green H2 competitive with fossil-fuels. I was kind of surprised at the relatively low operating hours now, but the amount required to make H2 cost-competitive is fairly low, only about 4,000 hours annually IIRR, an increase of about 1,000 hours annually.

The IRENA report says that aside from the electrolyser(s) there's
the balance of plant, which comprises power supply, water supply and purification, compression, possibly electricity and hydrogen buffers and hydrogen processing. Both components are important for the cost, since they have similar cost shares. The largest potential for near-term cost reduction is in this balance of plant, while RD&D is required to reduce stack cost and increase its performance and durability, as trade-offs among these are significant.

The flexibility of alkaline and PEM stacks is enough to follow fluctuations in wind and solar. The flexibility of the system is limited, however, by the balance of plant (e.g. the compressors) rather than the stack. Furthermore, flexibility in the very short term time scales involved (I e. sub-second) is not the key value proposition for electrolysers, as their key value system lies in bulk energy storage. This effectively decouples variability of generation from stability of hydrogen and power to X (PtX) demand through hydrogen storage in gas infrastructure (e.g. salt caverns, pipelines) and liquid e-fuels storage."
Page 26, if you're interested.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:05 pm

Snam and Wolftank launch collaboration for the construction of hydrogen refueling stations in Italy
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... -snam.html

Snam4Mobility, a Snam Group company active in sustainable mobility, and Wolftank Hydrogen, a company of the Austrian Group Wolftank-Adisa dedicated to hydrogen and renewable energy production and distribution plants, have started a collaboration aimed at boosting hydrogen mobility through the construction of refueling stations for cars, buses and trucks.

Following the signing of a memorandum of understanding, the two companies are evaluating infrastructure initiatives to enable the use of hydrogen in the transport sector in Italy and potentially in other countries. The first initiative is a joint expression of interest in response to the consultation of the Institute for Technological Innovations (IIT) in Bolzano for the construction of new refueling stations along the Brenner Motorway (A22). . . .

Currently, there is only one public refueling station for hydrogen vehicles in Italy, in Bolzano, which was built in 2012 with the support of the H2 Platform companies, including Wolftank. . . .

[Snam's] strategic plan includes the construction of at least five hydrogen refueling stations by 2024.

Wolftank Hydrogen anticipates strong growth in the market for hydrogen refueling stations in Europe and worldwide, as several countries and states outside Europe, such as Japan, China and California, each plan to have one million Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (FCEV) on the road by 2030, with the associated need for manufacturing and logistics infrastructure. . . .

Wolftank Hydrogen and Snam4Mobility may possibly extend their collaboration to the neighboring markets of Germany, Austria and Switzerland.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:47 pm

OILPRICE.com:
Can Latin America Become The Middle East Of Hydrogen?
https://oilprice-com.cdn.ampproject.org ... rogen.html

As oil majors around the world solidify their positions in the hydrogen industry, the IEA has highlighted Latin America as a clear area of opportunity for the production of what many expect to be the energy source of the future. “Latin America could become a key contributor to the global push towards low?carbon hydrogen”, the IEA stated in a 2020 report.

Hydrogen fuel is forming part of the long-term global energy transition as Big Oil strives to decarbonize its energy production over the next decades. Hydrogen provides a carbon-free base for synthetic fuels to power transportation and manufacturing, making it an ideal energy source. . . .

Argentina, Brazil, Chile, and Colombia have all released strategies to develop their hydrogen industries, all expecting to become low-carbon hydrogen exporters in the coming years. Mexico, Paraguay, and Uruguay are also looking to use hydrogen energy to decarbonize industry and transportation, but have yet to establish political strategies to develop the sector. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GetOffYourGas
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:17 am

GRA wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:48 pm
Renewable energy costs in good areas have gotten so low, at or below $0.02/kWh, that it doesn't seem to be a major issue. IIRR, Portuguese PV set a record last year at $1.31/MWh, i.e. 1.31¢/kWh. That's why countries like Chile, with excellent solar resources in the north (e g Atacama desert) and excellent wind approaching 50% CF in the south (Patagonia), as well as small populations, are looking to become major H2 exporters. Same goes for Australia.
Unless I am missing something, $1.31/MWh is actually 0.131¢/kWh which would be incredible. No wonder they want to export hydrogen. The problem is, where do they get water in the Atacama desert, one of the driest places on earth? I hope they intend to transmit the electricity to somewhere wetter, or they will absolutely annihilate an already fragile environment.
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:03 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:17 am
GRA wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:48 pm
Renewable energy costs in good areas have gotten so low, at or below $0.02/kWh, that it doesn't seem to be a major issue. IIRR, Portuguese PV set a record last year at $1.31/MWh, i.e. 1.31¢/kWh. That's why countries like Chile, with excellent solar resources in the north (e g Atacama desert) and excellent wind approaching 50% CF in the south (Patagonia), as well as small populations, are looking to become major H2 exporters. Same goes for Australia.
Unless I am missing something, $1.31/MWh is actually 0.131¢/kWh which would be incredible. No wonder they want to export hydrogen. The problem is, where do they get water in the Atacama desert, one of the driest places on earth? I hope they intend to transmit the electricity to somewhere wetter, or they will absolutely annihilate an already fragile environment.

Good catch. Typo now fixed: $13.1/MWh. I imagine Chile will send the power to the coast from inland deserts and do desalination as well, if desired or needed.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GetOffYourGas
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:23 am

GRA wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:03 pm
GetOffYourGas wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:17 am
GRA wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:48 pm
Renewable energy costs in good areas have gotten so low, at or below $0.02/kWh, that it doesn't seem to be a major issue. IIRR, Portuguese PV set a record last year at $1.31/MWh, i.e. 1.31¢/kWh. That's why countries like Chile, with excellent solar resources in the north (e g Atacama desert) and excellent wind approaching 50% CF in the south (Patagonia), as well as small populations, are looking to become major H2 exporters. Same goes for Australia.
Unless I am missing something, $1.31/MWh is actually 0.131¢/kWh which would be incredible. No wonder they want to export hydrogen. The problem is, where do they get water in the Atacama desert, one of the driest places on earth? I hope they intend to transmit the electricity to somewhere wetter, or they will absolutely annihilate an already fragile environment.

Good catch. Typo now fixed: $13.1/MWh. I imagine Chile will send the power to the coast from inkqne deserts and do desalination as well, if desired or needed.
Ah, so it really was 1.31¢/kWh. I was hoping it was 0.131¢/kWh. Who knows, it may get there eventually!

Chile seems like a great place for this to work out. The atacama desert isn't that far from the ocean, you just have to get over those pesky Andes. But we have the technology to do so inexpensively today. It will be interesting to see where this goes.
~Brian

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:05 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:23 am
GRA wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:03 pm


Good catch. Typo now fixed: $13.1/MWh. I imagine Chile will send the power to the coast from inkqne deserts and do desalination as well, if desired or needed.
Ah, so it really was 1.31¢/kWh. I was hoping it was 0.131¢/kWh. Who knows, it may get there eventually!

Chile seems like a great place for this to work out. The atacama desert isn't that far from the ocean, you just have to get over those pesky Andes. But we have the technology to do so inexpensively today. It will be interesting to see where this goes.

The Atacama is west of the Andes, so no worries on that score.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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