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Marktm
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:06 am

GRA wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:09 pm

You might want to read the IRENA report I posted a link to in December, about methods of cost reduction in electrolysis, which is the 2nd biggest cost in Green H2 after electricity. It has some cost breakdowns.
Thanks GRA - My concerns are not related to the strides that are being made in electrolysis - as I believe we will see major improvements in all areas of "renewables" in coming decades. My concern is that the lifecycle costs of the cleaning, compressing, delivering the dense phase hydrogen to compete as a "liquid" fuel will be simply too costly to ever compete with any other technology for any significant use - why?
- todays vision of "renewable" sources of the energy are mainly solar/wind - that are highly intermittant and potentially more costly than expected (Texas grid failure in my home town!)
- A choice in design/construction of the cleaning, compressing and storage of H2 will have to made - either battery storage to allow 24/7 operation, or 100-110% capacity to match the "intermittant" power levels of renewables - at a significantly higher lifecycle cost. Can the entire grid be redesigned to "share" the intermittant power across much of US? Maybe, and could solve some of such issues and significantly reduce battery storage requirements to level out power levels with more renewables.
- IMHO, whatever turns out to be the source of energy storage for the majority of our vehicular requirements (of all types) will also be the grid stabilizer to allow more renewables to be our energy source - and if designed properly will provide the resilience needed. If this is battery storage (certainly appears to be), again IMHO, we need to reserve battery production capacity for vehicles and figure out aggregation and smart charging to maximize the effectiveness.
- It seems a good compromize with use of H2 is reducing carbon content of nat gas - to the max that works with our exising infrastructure. Seems logical that more effecient electrolysis and the relatively low compression requirements to get into the pipelines would be an realistic approach in the near term.
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:30 pm

Marktm wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 8:06 am
GRA wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:09 pm

You might want to read the IRENA report I posted a link to in December, about methods of cost reduction in electrolysis, which is the 2nd biggest cost in Green H2 after electricity. It has some cost breakdowns.
Thanks GRA - My concerns are not related to the strides that are being made in electrolysis - as I believe we will see major improvements in all areas of "renewables" in coming decades. My concern is that the lifecycle costs of the cleaning, compressing, delivering the dense phase hydrogen to compete as a "liquid" fuel will be simply too costly to ever compete with any other technology for any significant use - why?
- todays vision of "renewable" sources of the energy are mainly solar/wind - that are highly intermittant and potentially more costly than expected (Texas grid failure in my home town!)
- A choice in design/construction of the cleaning, compressing and storage of H2 will have to made - either battery storage to allow 24/7 operation, or 100-110% capacity to match the "intermittant" power levels of renewables - at a significantly higher lifecycle cost. Can the entire grid be redesigned to "share" the intermittant power across much of US? Maybe, and could solve some of such issues and significantly reduce battery storage requirements to level out power levels with more renewables.
- IMHO, whatever turns out to be the source of energy storage for the majority of our vehicular requirements (of all types) will also be the grid stabilizer to allow more renewables to be our energy source - and if designed properly will provide the resilience needed. If this is battery storage (certainly appears to be), again IMHO, we need to reserve battery production capacity for vehicles and figure out aggregation and smart charging to maximize the effectiveness.
- It seems a good compromize with use of H2 is reducing carbon content of nat gas - to the max that works with our exising infrastructure. Seems logical that more effecient electrolysis and the relatively low compression requirements to get into the pipelines would be an realistic approach in the near term.

Life cycle costs don't seem to be major concerns in the studies I've seen. With production costs at $2/kg by 2030 as forecast, the remaining costs still allow H2 to be competitive with fossil fuels for transport. As for storage, while batteries are fine for peak shifting electric demand, H2 is going to be used for seasonal storage.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sat Apr 17, 2021 11:10 pm

GCC:
Uniper to make Wilhelmshaven German hub for green hydrogen; green ammonia import terminal
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... niper.html

. . . Plans include an import terminal for green ammonia. The terminal will be equipped with an ammonia cracker for producing green hydrogen and will also be connected to the planned hydrogen network. A 410-megawatt electrolysis plant is also planned, which—in combination with the import terminal—would be capable of supplying around 295,000 metric tons or 10% of the demand expected for the whole of Germany in 2030.

The generated climate-friendly hydrogen will primarily be used to supply local industry, but it will also be possible to feed it into the national hydrogen network. . . .

It is essential that Germany and Europe remain industrial powerhouses: If we want to achieve this and still hit our ambitious climate protection targets, we need hydrogen to power sectors such as steel production, the chemicals industry or in freight, shipping and air transport. In other words: We need ‘green molecules’ as well as ‘green electrons’.

We need to get hydrogen out of the laboratory and start using it in large-scale applications and marketable industrial solutions—we should make it into a commodity and exploit its wide variety of uses. One way of achieving this is to import green ammonia and convert it into hydrogen, which is something we are looking at for Wilhelmshaven.

Currently, Germany plans to generate 14 TWh of green hydrogen in 2030, but the demand for that year is forecast to be 90–100 TWh — the discrepancy between these two figures is abundantly clear. We will be heavily dependent on imports if we want to use hydrogen to help us achieve our climate goals.


—David Bryson, COO Uniper

Commissioning of the new terminal is planned for the second half of this decade, depending on national import demand and export opportunities. . . .

The aim is to produce around 2 million metric tons of “green” crude iron using hydrogen-generated via wind power. Uniper is working with Salzgitter and Rhenus Logistics, the city of Wilhelmshaven and the state of Lower Saxony on this project.

One sector in which hydrogen can play a crucial role in reducing CO2 emissions is steel production. Currently, each metric ton of crude steel produced releases approximately one metric ton of CO2 emissions. Hydrogen is the only realistic option for decarbonizing this industry.

—Dr. Axel Wietfeld, CEO Uniper Hydrogen. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Apr 18, 2021 12:30 pm

GRA wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:30 pm

Life cycle costs don't seem to be major concerns in the studies I've seen. With production costs at $2/kg by 2030 as forecast, the remaining costs still allow H2 to be competitive with fossil fuels for transport. As for storage, while batteries are fine for peak shifting electric demand, H2 is going to be used for seasonal storage.
Can you point to a true life cycle analysis that includes the costs of all capex, operations, maintenance and expected depreciated life of:
- electrolysis plant life cycle that includes all capex, operations, maintenance and expected depreciated life?
- Drying, cleaning up, compressing, and storage of the H2 dense phase?
- Build of "H2 stations" around the proposed distribution area?
- Transportation systems from dense phase storage to these "H2 stations" - must be electric vehicles of course!
- Utility system for all above including a solar array and transmission systems to power all the above.
I'd like to review such an analysis if you have access to one.

As a designer/operator of large refining and chem plants, I seldom have had clients that have made accurate life cycle cost estimates of plants, even those that have been constructed many times in the past, let alone new technology ventures.

Realistically, I doubt such a comprehensive analysis has been done on battery production/usage in EVs either - as they do have major issues/drawbacks! :mrgreen:
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:48 pm

^^^ I believe I've seen at least one such and posted a link a while back, but I'll be damned if I remember the source. Mostly it's been for individual components/areas. And of course, at the moment so much of the major cost reductions are projections rather than current costs and proprietary info isn't widely available, so high accuracy of overall costs at this point is not to be expected. I'll see if I can dig up something along the lines you want, but make no promises. In the meantime, you might check out this 2011 NREL cost analysis tool: https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/productio ... lysis.html

and the system analysis link: https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/systems-analysis.html

The latter includes links to a variety of reports, although the most recent is from 2018.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:05 pm

All GCC:
IMMORTAL consortium developing long-lifetime fuel cell technology for heavy-duty trucks
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... ortal.html

A major new European consortium, IMMORTAL, is developing higher performance fuel cell components for heavy duty trucks with a predicted lifetime of at least 30,000 hours.

IMMORTAL (IMproved lifetiMe stacks fOR heavy duty Trucks through ultrA-durabLe components) is a €3.8-million (US$4.6-million), three-year project supported by the European Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking (FCH 2 JU), which brings together a major consortium of industry leaders and academic/research organisations coordinated by France’s CNRS, and includes Johnson Matthey, Bosch, FPT Industrial and AVL.

IMMORTAL will develop exceptionally durable and high-power-density MEAs well beyond the current state of the art up to TRL4 by building on understanding of fuel cell degradation pathways specific to heavy-duty truck operation and developing lifetime prediction models from extensive real-life stack operation, accelerated stress test and load profile cycles on short stacks. . . .

The four large industrial partners of IMMORTAL are major stakeholders in Europe's fuel cell supply, OEM and end user chain, from MEA (Johnson Matthey) to stack (Bosch, AVL), and from stack and system (Bosch, FPT Industrial) to the pioneering use of the fuel cell powertrains in heavy-duty long haulage trucks (FPT Industrial). . . .

RWE and H2U partner to develop global hydrogen trading between Australia and Germany
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... weh2u.html

RWE Supply & Trading and Australian hydrogen project developer The Hydrogen Utility Pty Ltd (H2U) have joined forces to develop hydrogen trading between Australia and Germany. Together, they aim to bring green hydrogen produced in Australia to Europe.

This is in line with the objective of HySupply, a 24-month German-Australian feasibility study which started December 2020 by the German Academy of Science and Engineering and the Federation of German Industries. RWE Supply & Trading and H2U are contributing to this with their expertise. Furthermore, the planned LNG Terminal in Brunsbüttel, where RWE intends to book capacity, can be a location for the future import of hydrogen into Germany.

H2U develops several hydrogen projects in Australia and New Zealand such as the Eyre Peninsula Gateway Project. At the planned location in South Australia, they want to build a 75-megawatt electrolysis plant, which can supply hydrogen for about 40,000 tonnes of ammonia annually. In a second phase of expansion throughout the 2020s, H2U wants to extend the capacity to 1.5 gigawatts of electrolysis.

RWE is also constructing renewable energy plants in Australia. In Limondale, the company is currently building one of the largest solar farms in the country. Furthermore, RWE is driving forward some 30 hydrogen projects, mostly located in the Netherlands, Germany and the UK.

Origin Energy signs MOU with Port of Townsville on hydrogen export project with Kawasaki
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... rigin.html

Origin Energy’s export-scale liquid hydrogen project has reached an important milestone, with the signing a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with the Port of Townsville to collaborate on the potential expansion of the port, as well as the development of a liquefaction facility, new berth and associated infrastructure.

Origin is collaborating with Japan’s Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd (KHI) on a 300MW early export project that would produce 36,500 tonnes per year of green liquid hydrogen using renewable energy and sustainable water.

The three parties will now focus on work required to accommodate KHI’s semi-commercial scale liquid hydrogen carriers, currently under development, future project expansion opportunities, and potential for sharing of common infrastructure with other Port of Townsville users.

First export from the project is targeted from the mid-2020s. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:45 am

GCC:
ABB makes strategic investment in AFC Energy; partnering on alkaline fuel cells for data centers
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... 9-abb.html
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:20 am

GRA wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 7:48 pm
^^^ I believe I've seen at least one such and posted a link a while back, but I'll be damned if I remember the source. Mostly it's been for individual components/areas. And of course, at the moment so much of the major cost reductions are projections rather than current costs and proprietary info isn't widely available, so high accuracy of overall costs at this point is not to be expected. I'll see if I can dig up something along the lines you want, but make no promises. In the meantime, you might check out this 2011 NREL cost analysis tool: https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/productio ... lysis.html

and the system analysis link: https://www.nrel.gov/hydrogen/systems-analysis.html

The latter includes links to a variety of reports, although the most recent is from 2018.
Thanks GRA - I'll look into the links provided. Being an advocate of battery based EVs - to be aggregated at home and work as the energy storage is phenominal when the numbers get into the 10s and 100s of millions. Most of it not used that much for transportation. Can "smart" charging/V2X satisfy the OEMs?
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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Wed Apr 21, 2021 10:29 pm

GCC:
Blue World Technologies partners with Alfa Laval on methanol fuel-cell system for shipping
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... world.html

. . . The aim of the project is to establish a highly efficient and cost-effective HTPEM fuel cell solution, giving marine vessels a realistic alternative to combustion-based auxiliary power within the near future. The fuel cell test setup will have a power of 200 kW, but the fully developed and modular design should be possible to scale up incrementally to a level of 5 MW. . . .

During a year of planned testing at the Alfa Laval Test & Training Center, the fuel cell system’s durability and lifetime will be in focus. HTPEM fuel cells have a higher tolerance for thermal cycling than other fuel cell types, which makes them well suited to the variable power production needed from a genset. Nonetheless, the technology will need a lifespan comparable to that of combustion technologies in order to be feasible on board, which will mean addressing various sources of performance degradation.

The fuel cell system, which will provide clean operation with no particulate emissions, will use carbon-neutral renewable methanol as fuel. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:48 pm

All GCC:
SoCalGas, H2U testing new Gramme 50 electroylzer for green hydrogen production
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... 2-h2u.html

. . . According to early analysis, the cost target of the new technology is half that of current electrolyzers and the total cost of ownership over its life is expected to be 75% less. . . .

Design specs for the Gramme 50 include a production rate of 30~50 Nm3/hr with a power consumption range of 5~7 kWh/Nm or 150~350 kW. . . .

In addition, SoCalGas’ work with H2U Technologies includes validation studies on the performance of new non-precious metal catalysts used to initiate and accelerate the chemical process of splitting water into hydrogen and oxygen. These efforts could help drive down hydrogen production costs.

SoCalGas to partner with SunLine Transit Agency to test combination of technologies to produce hydrogen from RNG
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/0 ... lgas2.html

Southern California Gas Co. (SoCalGas) will demonstrate a combination of technologies that will produce hydrogen from renewable natural gas (RNG) at SunLine Transit Agency’s hydrogen fueling station in Thousand Palms, California. The research project, called “H2 SilverSTARS,” will produce renewable hydrogen to fuel SunLine’s fleet of 17 hydrogen fuel cell electric buses and support further expansion.

The combination of new technologies will make it possible to provide renewable hydrogen made from RNG at natural gas fueling stations—or any location near a natural gas pipeline. The goal is to produce emissions-free renewable hydrogen for fuel cell electric cars and other vehicles at a price competitive with gasoline.

The demonstration project will integrate two core technologies. The first, Linde’s HydroPrime HC300 MIN system, will make hydrogen from renewable natural gas the same way large centralized hydrogen production plants do—but with compact equipment small enough to fit in a tractor trailer container. While Linde’s system is already commercially available and being used abroad, its use at SunLine's fueling station will be the first time it is deployed in North America. The SunLine location will be able to produce up to 650 kilograms of hydrogen a day.

The second technology, STARS-165 SMR, built by the start-up STARS Technology Corporation, takes the Linde system a step further. It achieves significantly greater efficiencies in producing hydrogen by using a compact microchannel design and is driven by an electricity-powered induction heating process—meaning there is no combustion—which significantly reduces greenhouse gas emissions compared to traditional hydrogen production. . . .

In addition, the system is produced using 3-D printing, making it well suited for mass-production and thus drastically less expensive to make and operate compared to alternatives. Two STARS systems, with a combined production capacity of up to 330 kilograms of hydrogen a day, will be installed for this research project.

The 36-month project will initially demonstrate both core technologies individually and collect performance data to assess the STARS system’s potential to improve its efficiency and cost. The STARS SMR technology will then be integrated with the Linde HydroPrime system with the goal of fast-tracking its commercialization. . . .

Chevron, Toyota to explore strategic alliance on hydrogen
. . . Chevron and Toyota are seeking to work on three main strategic priorities:

Collaborating on hydrogen-related public policy measures that support the development of hydrogen infrastructure;

Understanding current and future market demand for light-duty and heavy-duty fuel cell electric vehicles and supply opportunities for that demand; and

Exploring opportunities to pursue joint research and development in hydrogen-powered transportation and storage. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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