Is there any data for DOD cycles on a battery at different % of Degradation?

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jdvm1988

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Feb 28, 2020
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Hi, first post here, I wanted to know if someone had any data or graph of the DOD cycles until end of life of battery but with different % of Degradation. I only find online data for DOD cycles of a brand new battery.

Im asking this because Im getting a 2013 S in a deal (not living in the US), the dealer cut back 6k of the price because the battery is really degradated, 5/12 bars, you read that right, 3 white ones with only 69k miles on it.

So I know I have to replace the battery and the dealer already discounted the price for it, BUT, I was thinking how much miles can it go with that kind of Degradation. I have a short commute and can charge at work, but how many miles can I "steal" from this old battery?
 
You need no more degradation info than that.... You have it right there.

Expect that you CANNOT drive it more than 5-10 miles...

You are buying it sight unseen? How much are you paying for it?

Expect to change the battery... First thing.
 
It depends upon whether the capacity bars have dropped due to overall degradation of all the cells evenly, or if there is one or more defective cells that are pulling down the pack average. You would need to read the cell voltages to determine which.

if the first case then i would guess that you could get 30 to 40 miles on a full charge at 40% capacity. if the second, then it is determined by the lowest cell.
 
jdvm1988 said:
how many miles can I "steal" from this old battery?
Click to expand...
Hard to know. Not much data I know of. Please keep us informed as to how your car does.

It would depend on how hot the climate is. In a cool climate it would be longer than in a hot climate. Roughly, where do you live?

About how many km or miles is your commute? At what speed? Hills?

With a short commute the major loss of capacity is calendar loss. Miles/km driven is secondary.
 
Well I live in the DR, it is kind of hot, 70F minimum average but in the summer it can get to 90's.

My commute varies from 20 to 28 miles roundtrip, but since I can charge wherever I go it will be rare if I run more than 13 miles without a place to charge it. But half of that trip is traffic jam on a highway, it takes me 1hr or more to run those 13 miles, terrain is mostly flat so no problems there.

I know its a challenge but every mile I can squeeze out of this battery is an absolute gain.
 
WetEV said:
It would depend on how hot the climate is. In a cool climate it would be longer than in a hot climate. ...

With a short commute the major loss of capacity is calendar loss. Miles/km driven is secondary.
Click to expand...

This is exactly backwards--the battery pack will deliver more miles on a hot or warm day than on a cool or cold day. Temperature is a major factor in the rate of chemical reactions.

Where do you come up with your facts? Have you ever seen a cell datasheet for the laef cells with the test data? The answer is no, because nobody has.

The number of charge cycles is the parameter found on datasheets used to estimate cell degradation and lifetime.
 
nlspace said:
It depends upon whether the capacity bars have dropped due to overall degradation of all the cells evenly, or if there is one or more defective cells that are pulling down the pack average.
Click to expand...

That is another doubt I have, one workshop here told me that I could not replace some of the cells, because they all degradate evenly, so if I were to replace the cells I needed to change all of the 192 of them. Is this true or is just a possibility more than a stone-written fact?
 
nlspace said:
WetEV said:
It would depend on how hot the climate is. In a cool climate it would be longer than in a hot climate. ...

With a short commute the major loss of capacity is calendar loss. Miles/km driven is secondary.
Click to expand...

This is exactly backwards--the battery pack will deliver more miles on a hot or warm day than on a cool or cold day. Temperature is a major factor in the rate of chemical reactions.

Where do you come up with your facts? Have you ever seen a cell datasheet for the laef cells with the test data? The answer is no, because nobody has.

The number of charge cycles is the parameter found on datasheets used to estimate cell degradation and lifetime.
Click to expand...
Capacity loss is a function of temperature as well. Yes, more km can be driven on a hot day, but capacity will be lost faster in a hot climate. Capacity loss is due to chemical reactions as well.
 
But capacity loss wasn't the question--OP wanted to know how many miles he could drive with a 5/12 pack.
 
nlspace said:
But capacity loss wasn't the question--OP wanted to know how many miles he could drive with a 5/12 pack.
Click to expand...
I agree that the OP wasn't exactly clear.

"How many more miles will this pack last for me?" is the way I read it. Not how many miles per charge. But I could be wrong, of course. Perhaps the OP will clarify.
 
jdvm1988 said:
Hi, first post here, I wanted to know if someone had any data or graph of the DOD cycles until end of life of battery but with different % of Degradation. I only find online data for DOD cycles of a brand new battery.

Im asking this because Im getting a 2013 S in a deal (not living in the US), the dealer cut back 6k of the price because the battery is really degradated, 5/12 bars, you read that right, 3 white ones with only 69k miles on it.

So I know I have to replace the battery and the dealer already discounted the price for it, BUT, I was thinking how much miles can it go with that kind of Degradation. I have a short commute and can charge at work, but how many miles can I "steal" from this old battery?
Click to expand...

Location? (Not in US doesn't work for me)

Price of car?

price of battery?

"Nissan" discounted the battery, not the dealer.
 
WetEV said:
nlspace said:
But capacity loss wasn't the question--OP wanted to know how many miles he could drive with a 5/12 pack.
Click to expand...
I agree that the OP wasn't exactly clear.

"How many more miles will this pack last for me?" is the way I read it. Not how many miles per charge. But I could be wrong, of course. Perhaps the OP will clarify.
Click to expand...

You are right that is the question, how many miles can this old pack last for me?, I asked for the DoD cycles cause ive been told that the more discharged the battery on a cycle the less the battery last. That way I can estimate that this pack will last X miles for me until the battery change. Which I know for a fact its gonna happen.
 
The packs seem to be hard to kill, in that there are four and even three bar Leafs reported on Facebook and other places that are still drive-able. Cwerdna would best know how many of those have been seen.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
jdvm1988 said:
Hi, first post here, I wanted to know if someone had any data or graph of the DOD cycles until end of life of battery but with different % of Degradation. I only find online data for DOD cycles of a brand new battery.

Im asking this because Im getting a 2013 S in a deal (not living in the US), the dealer cut back 6k of the price because the battery is really degradated, 5/12 bars, you read that right, 3 white ones with only 69k miles on it.

So I know I have to replace the battery and the dealer already discounted the price for it, BUT, I was thinking how much miles can it go with that kind of Degradation. I have a short commute and can charge at work, but how many miles can I "steal" from this old battery?
Click to expand...

Location? (Not in US doesn't work for me)

Price of car?

price of battery?

"Nissan" discounted the battery, not the dealer.
Click to expand...

I live in the Dominican Republic, nissan does not import leaf's in this country. (warranty is out of the question) all the leaf's in the country are imported by independent dealers or by anyone. That is not at all rare in this country, same happens with all the rest of other brands.

Over here in DR since you have to pay quite a few taxes when importing any vehicle all the prices are overinflated, 2013 leafs are selling for around US$14,000 Ive seen some even get to US$15,000, Im buying the car at US$7,900, because dealer knows I have to do some work on it.

I hope I clarified this whole mess, and thanks to everyone for their input, really appreciate it.
 
^^^
Those prices are insane.
LeftieBiker said:
The packs seem to be hard to kill, in that there are four and even three bar Leafs reported on Facebook and other places that are still drive-able. Cwerdna would best know how many of those have been seen.
Click to expand...
Yeah. The worst I've seen pics of are 3 capacity bar cars (e.g. https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=572630&hilit=thailand#p572630).

Sorry, I haven't monitored nor read this thread carefully so I might be missing some things. I don't know where in the DR the OP is and how much the climate varies but if it's like Santo Domingo (I Googled for santo domingo average temperatures and came up with https://imgur.com/a/rh6HU8B) I really would not want to have a 5 bar car. The average high year round temps are too high and the lows are too high. It will degrade that battery pretty quickly.

If the OP wants to keep the car for a long time, with that kind of climate, better getting an 11 or 12 bar "lizard" pack model year '15 from a cool climate or one that had battery changed to a "lizard" pack or getting some other EV w/battery thermal management that can keep the battery below those temps.
 
cwerdna said:
^^^
Those prices are insane.
LeftieBiker said:
The packs seem to be hard to kill, in that there are four and even three bar Leafs reported on Facebook and other places that are still drive-able. Cwerdna would best know how many of those have been seen.
Click to expand...
Yeah. The worst I've seen pics of are 3 capacity bar cars (e.g. https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802&p=572630&hilit=thailand#p572630).

Sorry, I haven't monitored nor read this thread carefully so I might be missing some things. I don't know where in the DR the OP is and how much the climate varies but if it's like Santo Domingo (I Googled for santo domingo average temperatures and came up with https://imgur.com/a/rh6HU8B) I really would not want to have a 5 bar car. The average high year round temps are too high and the lows are too high. It will degrade that battery pretty quickly.

If the OP wants to keep the car for a long time, with that kind of climate, better getting an 11 or 12 bar "lizard" pack model year '15 from a cool climate or one that had battery changed to a "lizard" pack or getting some other EV w/battery thermal management that can keep the battery below those temps.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip on the lizard battery, pardon my ignorance but is the '15 battery pack compatible with the '13 leaf?

And yes i do live in Santo Domingo, what can I expect of this or some other battery over here? 10% capacity loss per year? Indeed there are a lot of leafs over here, but i seriously doubt anyone has a clue on capacity loss and degradation. Thanks again.
 
Nissan improved the battery lifetime during the 2013 model year. It sounds like this Leaf was built early in 2013 and has the worse battery type. It will continue to degrade slowly and heat makes it go faster. You can probably just extrapolate the range loss it has already experienced to see how it will behave in the future. Be aware that the 1st bar is 15% loss and each subsequent bar is 7.5% loss. Your hot climate will increase the loss rate unless the car is coming from a hot place, like Miami.

The build date of the car should be listed on a sticker inside the door. Or you might be able to get it from the VIN. In any case, a car from 2014 or 2015 will have a battery that will degrade much slower, especially in heat.

One bad cell can be replaced if defective but I'd guess that isn't the case here. Most likely the entire pack is degraded and replacing one or two cells won't make it better.
 
goldbrick said:
Nissan improved the battery lifetime during the 2013 model year. It sounds like this Leaf was built early in 2013 and has the worse battery type. It will continue to degrade slowly and heat makes it go faster. You can probably just extrapolate the range loss it has already experienced to see how it will behave in the future. Be aware that the 1st bar is 15% loss and each subsequent bar is 7.5% loss. Your hot climate will increase the loss rate unless the car is coming from a hot place, like Miami.

The build date of the car should be listed on a sticker inside the door. Or you might be able to get it from the VIN. In any case, a car from 2014 or 2015 will have a battery that will degrade much slower, especially in heat.

One bad cell can be replaced if defective but I'd guess that isn't the case here. Most likely the entire pack is degraded and replacing one or two cells won't make it better.
Click to expand...

Ok thanks, going with those numbers we are talking about a 60% capacity loss in 7 years, that's 8.5% a year, worst case scenario it will be double that number, say 17% by next year leaving the car with 23% left, aprox. 3 bars.

I think i can squeeze a few thousand miles in that timespan if a become a charging-maniac everywhere i go lol.
 
The 2015 Lizard pack is compatible with the 2013 cars AFAIK. It seems that even 2013 Leafs with the old chemistry use the newer case. You should know, though, that even a Lizard pack will degrade too fast if you have hot days and warm nights. I wouldn't recommend a Leaf there unless you have an air-conditioned garage and don't drive a lot.
 

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