How to evaluate/compare different used Leafs wrt battery/mileage/overall longevity?

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Y

Yanni

Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2018
Messages
13
Location
Southern California
Am in the market for a used Leaf. we have excess solar generation from our roof panels and this will save the kid $$ by not having to buy gas, but don't want to buy a $$$ vehicle (new) because once they leave (3 years out) we won't need it anymore. (I'll likely be purchasing an EV or PHEV in 2020 or 2021 and THAT will use up the bulk of our excess solar. Waiting for a decent SUV/AWD offering to become available.)

Also, this vehicle doesn't need to get much mileage beyond 50/55 on a full charge as it'll just be going to work or school and back for one of the kids.

I say 50/55 miles because they really need about 40 for the longest round trip drive, and I figure i need to start higher at the outset so that in a few years we can still drive it. Is this reasonable? how fast can I expect the battery to degrade? We're in So Cal coastal climate and this vehicle does NOT have a space in the garage. If they need to drive a longer distance, they can borrow my car. ;-)

Was looking at the CPO listings on the Nissan website, but I guess 2015 is too old for CPO because there were only 2016's and newer there.
They mostly start at $12K which I think is WAAAy too high so I'll likely have to go non-CPO and take my chances with a private seller or a used car lot. (scary!)

What year is "too old" to expect this kind of 50/55 mileage now?

Should I be worried and just stick to only CPO vehicles?

Should I care about S vs SV? Not even sure what I'm "missing" by getting an S in the 2015-2016 years..

What are the top methods to check out the battery "health" as I've read it's called?

Sorry for so many questions! I wish each topic had it's own thread!

Thanks!
 
Please read this. It's my used leaf buying guide/pitfall avoidance guide.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26662&p=538030

You need to give us more details about the kind of driving you do, in order for us to determine how realistic that range figure is. How fast on the highway? How much city vs highway driving?

The heatpump in the SV can increase Winter range, even in your milder climate, if you use defrost/defog a lot, because the car uses resistance heat for that as well. Think of it as a way to get an older/cheaper Leaf. If you only use A/C, though, and don't need extra bells & whistles, the S will do.
 
Yanni said:
Should I be worried and just stick to only CPO vehicles?

Should I care about S vs SV? Not even sure what I'm "missing" by getting an S in the 2015-2016 years..
Click to expand...
For the trim levels, see the specs tab of https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/release-513847a8aeeb48d480a52a8fbdcdbd93-us-2015-nissan-leaf-press-kit and https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/release-bc61419969d1446daf58c4f84915aad3-us-2016-nissan-leaf-press-kit.

Basically, S trims have non-glossy plastic, no nav system and no telematics (no cellular radio), knobs for the stereo and HVAC and and inferior stereo vs. SV. SV can also have premium package which includes a better (Bose) stereo and 4 camera Around View Monitor (LOVE it). Also, '13 to '17 SV and SL include a hybrid heat pump heater. All '13 to '17 SV and SL include a 6.6 kW on-board charger. For S trims, it's only 3.x kW unless you get the charge package which also adds a CHAdeMO inlet.

CPO? Usually Nissan dealers have big markups. I mentioned that at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=512148#p512148 and have a pointer there to my buying saga. I paid $9,325 + tax and license for a '13 SV w/premium, built 5/2013 w/all 12 capacity bars and under 24K miles back in July 2015. I still have the car and am past 65K miles. 1st capacity bar lost in Nov 2017 (at just under 50K miles) and am still at 11 bars. Leaf Spy SOH is around 81 to 83% now.

In 2013, when I was in the market to lease a Leaf, I ruled out the '13 S because it didn't have cruise control (that changed in model year 2015). I listened briefly to the standard SV stereo vs. Bose (part of premium package only available on SV and SL). The Bose stereo was clearly much better so I went w/a '13 w/both packages (premium & LED headlights + quick charge inlet).
 
Consider a 2016 30 KWh if you can swing a few extra bucks. The extra range and 100K battery warranty against loss of capacity will insure against having a car that doesn't have enough range any more. Also the resale value is likely to be more if you decide to sell in three years (8 yr battery capacity warranty vs 5 yr on a 24 KWH). If you get a free battery out of the warranty, that's an added bonus. Coastal Cal weather is good for the battery but if you live inland with really hot summers the battery will fail sooner rather than later. The residual on an off lease 2016 Leaf is about 12k but you can find them for less than that because dealers often dump them at the wholesale auctions rather then try to sell them off the lot.

I wouldn't worry about whether the car is CPO or not. There just isn't much to go wrong in the first place and the dealers are just adding a markup for "CPO". Most off lease Leafs will have less than 36K on them in the first place so other than a set of tires and new wiper blades there won't be much if any maintenance to do. If you can find a private party sale that would be the cheapest way to go.
 
Addressing your "battery health" question:

The only real indication of battery health/degradation is to buy/borrow the dongle and the Leafspy app. My direct experience has been with both an original and replacement battery over more than 20,000 miles of battery use in hot Houston TX area - with a Leaf that spent it's entire life in this hot climate. The 24 kWh battery starts at essentially 66 amp-hours, so whatever the amp-hour readout shows - that is the amount it has degraded. Be aware that (on mine at least) it varies somewhat seasonally. I've included the chart to you can see that "cycle". I've tried several methods of predicting future degradation, but the most simple is to divide the change in battery amp-hours from new to present by the number of months of life of battery and use that loss/month to predict the amp-hour degradation of the future. Of course, if the Leaf is from a different climate, has been in "storage" for long period or you will be driving much more/less than previous owner, this may not be reliable

Battery amp-hours do not tell the whole story of range however as only a portion of the battery energy is available. A fairly good prediction of range is to simply input your best estimate of miles/kWh for your driving habits on the app and use 0% remaining and the app will give a good estimate of the MAXIMUM range to "turtle". The "best estimate" part is knowing the miles/kWh. My "commuter" style habits with occasional 60-65 mph highway trips is 3.8 to 4.0. Keep in mind that you can charge up to 90% if/when you need the most range. The A/C is not normally a large consideration as it is quite efficient IF you keep the Leaf shaded and not parked on hot pavement (which is best for battery degradation also). The heater is another story - uses copious amounts of energy on my (older/resistance type) heater. Seems that might not be a problem for you. I seldom use the heater as the heated steering wheel and seat heaters keep me comfortable down to the 40 degree range.

Combining the "degradation" prediction with the current range estimates should give you some idea of the future range loss - with the caveats of climate and basic usage - which could be difficult to predict as stated in the battery degradation paragraph. However, I was able to actually talk with the previous owner that had similar usage patterns in the same area.

I'm sure others have different estimates of miles/kWh based on driving habits/climate conditions, plus keep in mind, mine is a 2012 with the original battery replaced at 25,000 miles with a "Lizard" battery and now at 45,000 miles. The loss of amp-hours per month has been similar on both batteries - the "Lizard" has done marginally better.



Battery log 6.30.19.jpg
 
Thanks for the link!
I will check it out next week.

I drive like 20 miles round trip stop/go traffic lights (40 mph) to get to work.

The kids go between 20 and 40 miles round trip for work or school.

We have 3 drivers and 2 cars right now..hubby has developed a medical condition and can't drive. (TMI) but it factors in later.

The 20 miles school trip is also only stop/go traffic lights. The 40 miles is half stop/go traffic lights and 1/2 highway (60 mph)

This will only be used as a cheap "extra" car to go on these very short drives into town, Whoever is doing the longest trip that the car can support (battery health) drives this one to save the most $ on fuel, as we have excess solar generation that we want to use up.
We have 2 other cars, an older ICE (regular long distance driving) and a Rogue Hybrid AWD (used for long long trips/snow etc) that are also in the family garage.

No $$ for an expensive, long range BEV, we're just trying to stop driving the ICE while I wait for a PHEV AWD SUV to come on the market that I love. (not enamored with the Mitsubishi and the other offerings have very low EV range...)

My PHEV AWD SUV focus in the next year or so is because as the kids leave the nest and it's just me and hubby (who can't drive) I STILL want to be able to use up our excess solar AND since we'll be down to just one car at that point, it needs to be a Plug IN, but I don't want BEV only because when we go on long trips it also needs to be AWD...So my ONE VEHICLE needs to be "everything" since hubby doesn't have his own car to provide an alternative.

does this make sense?

I'm not excited about sitting around in "who knows where" charging up on a road trip, hence the PHEV desire.




LeftieBiker said:
Please read this. It's my used leaf buying guide/pitfall avoidance guide.

https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=26662&p=538030

You need to give us more details about the kind of driving you do, in order for us to determine how realistic that range figure is. How fast on the highway? How much city vs highway driving?

The heatpump in the SV can increase Winter range, even in your milder climate, if you use defrost/defog a lot, because the car uses resistance heat for that as well. Think of it as a way to get an older/cheaper Leaf. If you only use A/C, though, and don't need extra bells & whistles, the S will do.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the links and info.

I guess I definitely want a decent bluetooth option. the kids won't care (arn't paying for) a decent radio. The rides we'll be taking this on are sooo short! Who cares? They're not paying for this...so they don't really get a vote. ;-)
Other than bluetooth, there really isn't anything we care about for this car! One kid will be moving to a city where he doesn't need a car, so it's not like this is going with anyone. We'll likely dump it when it no longer is needed. Not thinking/caring about resale on it for the future as it likely will have a battery with like a 30 mile range when all is said and done and if we even keep it it'll just be for when the kids or our nieces/nephews come to visit. LOL

Thanks for the info on the different charging options. We have not yet installed a home charger but will when we get to that point. :)
Didn't know there were differences 3.3 vs 6.6, etc. in the different makes/years.

we just use Google maps from our phone in our old ICE car. not a big deal. Everything else is candy...we don't need it in this vehicle but i'm glad you mentioned it.


cwerdna said:
Yanni said:
Should I be worried and just stick to only CPO vehicles?

Should I care about S vs SV? Not even sure what I'm "missing" by getting an S in the 2015-2016 years..
Click to expand...
For the trim levels, see the specs tab of https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/release-513847a8aeeb48d480a52a8fbdcdbd93-us-2015-nissan-leaf-press-kit and https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/release-bc61419969d1446daf58c4f84915aad3-us-2016-nissan-leaf-press-kit.

Basically, S trims have non-glossy plastic, no nav system and no telematics (no cellular radio), knobs for the stereo and HVAC and and inferior stereo vs. SV. SV can also have premium package which includes a better (Bose) stereo and 4 camera Around View Monitor (LOVE it). Also, '13 to '17 SV and SL include a hybrid heat pump heater. All '13 to '17 SV and SL include a 6.6 kW on-board charger. For S trims, it's only 3.x kW unless you get the charge package which also adds a CHAdeMO inlet.

CPO? Usually Nissan dealers have big markups. I mentioned that at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=512148#p512148 and have a pointer there to my buying saga. I paid $9,325 + tax and license for a '13 SV w/premium, built 5/2013 w/all 12 capacity bars and under 24K miles back in July 2015. I still have the car and am past 65K miles. 1st capacity bar lost in Nov 2017 (at just under 50K miles) and am still at 11 bars. Leaf Spy SOH is around 81 to 83% now.

In 2013, when I was in the market to lease a Leaf, I ruled out the '13 S because it didn't have cruise control (that changed in model year 2015). I listened briefly to the standard SV stereo vs. Bose (part of premium package only available on SV and SL). The Bose stereo was clearly much better so I went w/a '13 w/both packages (premium & LED headlights + quick charge inlet).
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the info re: CPO

I was thinking there might be some kind of battery "validation" or something on a CPO that I wouldn't get on a private party sale...

Without engine and all those fluids, belts, etc there really isn't much to do I suppose!

If I needed this car to last a while I would probably go for the 30kWh, but this is really a 3 year throw away car until I get my PHEV that will use up all the excess juice our panels are producing.

How would I get a car at an auction ?
Or are you saying that the dealers will sell these low low low without CPOing them so that they DON'T have to sell them at an auction?

Not sure where the opportunity is for me to swoop in and get a good deal on a used one.

Thanks!

:)

johnlocke said:
Consider a 2016 30 KWh if you can swing a few extra bucks. The extra range and 100K battery warranty against loss of capacity will insure against having a car that doesn't have enough range any more. Also the resale value is likely to be more if you decide to sell in three years (8 yr battery capacity warranty vs 5 yr on a 24 KWH). If you get a free battery out of the warranty, that's an added bonus. Coastal Cal weather is good for the battery but if you live inland with really hot summers the battery will fail sooner rather than later. The residual on an off lease 2016 Leaf is about 12k but you can find them for less than that because dealers often dump them at the wholesale auctions rather then try to sell them off the lot.

I wouldn't worry about whether the car is CPO or not. There just isn't much to go wrong in the first place and the dealers are just adding a markup for "CPO". Most off lease Leafs will have less than 36K on them in the first place so other than a set of tires and new wiper blades there won't be much if any maintenance to do. If you can find a private party sale that would be the cheapest way to go.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks! I will have to figure out your terminology after I see the dealer and ask them a lot of questions, like, where do I see these #s??

:)

We have heat here, but not like Houston.

Coastal So. Cal, so it cools down every night. no humidity. But whoever takes the car, it will be outside on the blacktop during the work or school day. Not a lot of guaranteed shade options for us.

Thanks again for the detailed info in your post.

Marktm said:
Addressing your "battery health" question:

The only real indication of battery health/degradation is to buy/borrow the dongle and the Leafspy app. My direct experience has been with both an original and replacement battery over more than 20,000 miles of battery use in hot Houston TX area - with a Leaf that spent it's entire life in this hot climate. The 24 kWh battery starts at essentially 66 amp-hours, so whatever the amp-hour readout shows - that is the amount it has degraded. Be aware that (on mine at least) it varies somewhat seasonally. I've included the chart to you can see that "cycle". I've tried several methods of predicting future degradation, but the most simple is to divide the change in battery amp-hours from new to present by the number of months of life of battery and use that loss/month to predict the amp-hour degradation of the future. Of course, if the Leaf is from a different climate, has been in "storage" for long period or you will be driving much more/less than previous owner, this may not be reliable

Battery amp-hours do not tell the whole story of range however as only a portion of the battery energy is available. A fairly good prediction of range is to simply input your best estimate of miles/kWh for your driving habits on the app and use 0% remaining and the app will give a good estimate of the MAXIMUM range to "turtle". The "best estimate" part is knowing the miles/kWh. My "commuter" style habits with occasional 60-65 mph highway trips is 3.8 to 4.0. Keep in mind that you can charge up to 90% if/when you need the most range. The A/C is not normally a large consideration as it is quite efficient IF you keep the Leaf shaded and not parked on hot pavement (which is best for battery degradation also). The heater is another story - uses copious amounts of energy on my (older/resistance type) heater. Seems that might not be a problem for you. I seldom use the heater as the heated steering wheel and seat heaters keep me comfortable down to the 40 degree range.

Combining the "degradation" prediction with the current range estimates should give you some idea of the future range loss - with the caveats of climate and basic usage - which could be difficult to predict as stated in the battery degradation paragraph. However, I was able to actually talk with the previous owner that had similar usage patterns in the same area.

I'm sure others have different estimates of miles/kWh based on driving habits/climate conditions, plus keep in mind, mine is a 2012 with the original battery replaced at 25,000 miles with a "Lizard" battery and now at 45,000 miles. The loss of amp-hours per month has been similar on both batteries - the "Lizard" has done marginally better.



Battery log 6.30.19.jpg
Click to expand...
 
I was thinking there might be some kind of battery "validation" or something on a CPO that I wouldn't get on a private party sale...
Click to expand...

No. There is a possible benefit to buying a CPO leaf, but it applies only to the 2015, and doesn't really apply in your case.

It looks to me like you want either a Leaf S or an un-optioned SV, with at least 11 capacity bars remaining. The capacity bars are the tiny, short bars at the end of the "fuel" or "charge" bars on the dash. There are 12 of them to start, and as the battery's capacity drops, they fall away, one by one. The top bar represents 15% of the battery's capacity, so when it "drops" you have 85% left. The remaining bars represent about 6% capacity each. So an 11 bar Leaf has between 80% and 85% capacity left - assuming no tampering has occurred. That is covered in the buying guide I linked.
 
Sounds like you want the cheapest EV possible, so rather than a LEAF you should consider a Fiat 500e or a Chevy Spark, both of which have TMS:

https://bit.ly/33VBPsK
 
LeftieBiker said:
It looks to me like you want either a Leaf S or an un-optioned SV, with at least 11 capacity bars remaining. The capacity bars are the tiny, short bars at the end of the "fuel" or "charge" bars on the dash. There are 12 of them to start, and as the battery's capacity drops, they fall away, one by one. The top bar represents 15% of the battery's capacity, so when it "drops" you have 85% left. The remaining bars represent about 5% capacity each. So an 11 bar Leaf has between 80% and 85% capacity left - assuming no tampering has occurred. That is covered in the buying guide I linked.
Click to expand...
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=436255#p436255 has a visual aid of the capacity bars, which includes the red and white ones. http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki/battery-capacity-loss/ has a pic of a a fully charged 9 bar car.

1st bar is 15%. Supposedly each bar after that is 6.25%. Search http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki/battery-d1/ for retained. Unfortunately, that table was removed in service manuals after '11 and it's unclear if it has ever returned.
 
It's too bad that software (or something major with the config) changed at that wiki. Everything has gone wonky compared to the way it used to look (e.g. https://web.archive.org/web/20140505024023/http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery#Battery_Capacity_Behavior).

More people need to do their duty (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9553) by submitting content to https://archive.org/web/.
 
If you are looking at used Leafs, I would suggest Carmax and not Carvana. Carmax seems to get photos of the battery SOH on the dashboard while Caravana seems to be unaware that you even need such information. Plus carmax can move stuff around for you for fairly cheap and you can go and actually touch it and plug into it to check the battery BEFORE buying. This assumes you can't find one from a private sale, of course.
 
Yanni said:
Thanks! I will have to figure out your terminology after I see the dealer and ask them a lot of questions, like, where do I see these #s??

:)

We have heat here, but not like Houston.

Coastal So. Cal, so it cools down every night. no humidity. But whoever takes the car, it will be outside on the blacktop during the work or school day. Not a lot of guaranteed shade options for us.

Thanks again for the detailed info in your post.
Click to expand...

Your welcome.
I have a suburban and the Leaf. The combination has been extremely useful for several reasons:
1. The use of the older suburban is used for longer trips or with big loads, so it's life is being extended - big savings not buying a new one!
2. Savings on $$/miles is significant for the standard reasons - little maintenance, no oil changes, cheaper tires, depreciation, insurance, "fuel", etc. You will likely see similar if you stretch the use of your other cars.
3. Driving the Leaf is like driving a go-cart compared to our other ICE cars (think fun!) - and it's so much easier to park :p


If you decide on a used Leaf, IMO, it's important to understand the starting battery condition and expected degradation. The best bet is to find one that has had similar use in your area and use the LeafSpy app to help predict the future. It will pay off in the life of the Leaf - and also help negociate the price. If you decide to go that route, PM me and I'll explain - at least anecdotally what my experience has been over 20,000 plus miles - and with a replacement battery also. Most likely the dealer will be of little help and possibly a "mine of miss-information"!.
 
Congrats. Sounds like you got a good deal that will serve you well.

One thing to mention, when I got my new Leaf I watched the GOM constantly. I'd bet you will be more satisfied in the long run by completely ignoring the GOM and use the % of SOC display instead. There should be a menu button that you can scroll through that will display the % of SOC. I use that exclusively now and never look at the GOM except maybe for entertainment. Anyway, enjoy the car!
 
When you get LeafSpy working, likely any range anxiety will be a thing of the past as you can confidently use most (all) the battery capacity - once you experience your actual miles/kWh for various driving conditions. Enjoy!!
 

Similar threads

J
Considering a 2015 Leaf S
2
Replies
35
Views
2K
jamin594
J
L
Evaluations of Ariya appreciated from owners who also have had Leafs.
2
Replies
35
Views
3K
rogersleaf
R
M
Hello from Wales
Replies
1
Views
140
Jamesjeff
J
P
New used 2021 Leaf owner says hi :)
Replies
8
Views
734
SueC56
S
majbthrd
lowest mileage LEAF battery fail ever?
Replies
6
Views
1K
thew
thew

Latest posts

Back
Top