klapauzius
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Re: Gun discussion goes here

Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:30 pm

"A gun-loving Florida mom was accidentally shot in the back by her 4-year-old son with a .45-caliber pistol he found on the floor of her pickup truck, police said Wednesday." http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jam ... on-n534981

:lol:

AndyH
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Re: Gun discussion goes here

Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:04 am

This is for the folks that believe that the 1950/1962 civil rights efforts were accomplished without weapons or the rights of the individual citizen to keep and bear arms IAW the US Bill of Rights (no, not just the 2A).

http://uncpress.unc.edu/browse/book_detail?title_id=850
In 1964 a small group of African American men in Jonesboro, Louisiana, defied the nonviolence policy of the mainstream civil rights movement and formed an armed self-defense organization--the Deacons for Defense and Justice--to protect movement workers from vigilante and police violence. With their largest and most famous chapter at the center of a bloody campaign in the Ku Klux Klan stronghold of Bogalusa, Louisiana, the Deacons became a popular symbol of the growing frustration with Martin Luther King Jr.'s nonviolent strategy and a rallying point for a militant working-class movement in the South.

Lance Hill offers the first detailed history of the Deacons for Defense and Justice, who grew to several hundred members and twenty-one chapters in the Deep South and led some of the most successful local campaigns in the civil rights movement. In his analysis of this important yet long-overlooked organization, Hill challenges what he calls "the myth of nonviolence"--the idea that a united civil rights movement achieved its goals through nonviolent direct action led by middle-class and religious leaders. In contrast, Hill constructs a compelling historical narrative of a working-class armed self-defense movement that defied the entrenched nonviolent leadership and played a crucial role in compelling the federal government to neutralize the Klan and uphold civil rights and liberties.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deacons_f ... nd_Justice
The Deacons were instrumental in many campaigns led by the Civil Rights Movement. A good example is the June 1966 March Against Fear, which went from Memphis, Tennessee, to Jackson, Mississippi. The March Against Fear signified a shift in character and power in the southern civil rights movement and was an event in which the Deacons participated.

Scholar Akinyele O. Umoja speaks about the group’s effort more specifically. According to Umoja it was the urging of Stokely Carmichael that the Deacons were to be used as security for the march. Many times protection from the federal or state government was either inadequate or not given, even while knowing that groups like the Klan would commit violent acts against civil rights workers. An example of this was the Freedom Ride where many non-violent activists became the targets of assault for angry White mobs. After some debate and discussion many of the civil rights leaders compromised their strict non-violent beliefs and allowed the Deacons to be used. One such person was Dr. King. Umoja states, “Finally, though expressing reservations, King conceded to Carmichael’s proposals to maintain unity in the march and the movement. The involvement and association of the Deacons with the march signified a shift in the civil rights movement, which had been popularly projected as a ‘nonviolent movement.”‘
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mlk ... 8f46f9c886
Some blacks, Cobb recalled, jokingly referring to their personal weapons as “nonviolent pistols.”

“They would say, even as they were cleaning their rifles, how glad they were to be part of the movement,” Cobb said. “They knew King wasn’t going to be carrying a weapon, so people’s attitude was, ‘We’re not going to let the white people kill him.’”
http://www.americas1stfreedom.org/artic ... d-justice/
By the late 1960s, the Deacons had been so successful that they were no longer necessary. The gains of the civil rights movement, and the long-overdue criminal prosecutions of violent Klansmen, had greatly reduced the dangers faced by civil rights activists. The spirit of armed self-defense, which the Deacons had cultivated, meant that white racists could no longer attack blacks with impunity. While the new possibility that white-on-black crime might result in defensive gunfire, Southern law enforcement had become much more interested in stopping such attacks in the first place. Still, many say that the Deacons are only resting—ready to rise again in the hour of need.

One Deacon, the Rev. Frederick Douglas Kirk, later appeared on Sesame Street singing patriotic songs under the name “Brother Kirk.” When he sang, “This land is your land, this land is my land, this land was made for you and me,” only a few television viewers knew how much Brother Kirk had done to make those words come true.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001TJMC34
In Search of the Second Amendment is a documentary film on the American right to arms, produced by legal scholar David T. Hardy. It tells the story via twelve professors of constitutional law, historians, and original documents, many never before filmed. It also tells the story of how gun ownership figured in the civil rights movement of the 1960s, featuring two civil rights workers who armed to defend themselves and their friends, and how armed resistance staved off the KKK. The documentary has been praised by Michelle Malkin, and nominated for the American Bar Association's Silver Gavel Award for legal education. Its creation won its producer the Second Amendment Foundation's Bill of Rights Award.
Yes, even the attorneys that represented civil rights activists in the south were armed - for their own protection and to protect their clients while parked in front of their client's homes.
Last edited by AndyH on Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AndyH
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Re: Gun discussion goes here

Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:05 am

duplicate. Unable to delete "in this forum".

AndyH
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Re: Gun discussion goes here

Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:52 am

LeftieBiker wrote:I'm sure not sticking around here - I had enough of this with Usenet in the Nineties - but the previous post raises what I dubbed the "Snapshot Fallacy" back in the day. This fallacy looks at the immediate consequences of an action, and if there are none visible at that point, it deems the action to be without effect. In the case of guns, greatly restricting sales probably would not have a vast, easy to see immediate effect, because the illegal gun culture, which thrives on the "trickle-down" of guns from legal purchases, would still have plenty of guns to work with, for years to come. This does not, however, mean that making guns more difficult to acquire now would not make them more scarce in the criminal market. It just means that as with most society-wide changes, it would take years, decades, to take effect. Our country is so saturated with firearms that even if we were to miraculously act tomorrow to ban all of the guns commonly used in crimes, it would be at least 5 years before there was an easy to see change in those crimes. As primates, we find it hard to take actions now that will only help us a few years down the line. That's why we still burn coal, and it's why we still let the gun industry, via the NRA and its followers, dictate our firearm policies.
I suspect, Leftie, that if you were to dig a bit more deeply into the topic, that you would arrive at a different conclusion. It's easy to read a single post and assign a label - that sport predates Usenet.

Your position as defined by the label you've chosen to apply begins with the fallacy that the only factor that determines a criminal's use of a gun is the number of them in circulation. This has been proven wrong out in the real world inside and outside the USA, and even by documentation in this forum.

As we've already noted - even if we remove 100% of all firearms from the hands of everyone in the USA - citizens, military, police (so none can be stolen or mistakenly left on the trunk of a patrol car) - and then remove all types of machines that can be used to turn metals into firearms, and register purchase/transfer of all metals or plastics that can be formed or fashioned into firearms, those that desire to construct and use firearms will still have them.

Example:
http://www.crimemuseum.org/crime-librar ... -unabomber
[A] few days ago I finished making a twenty two caliber pistol. This took me a long time, for a year and a half, thereby preventing me from working on some other projects I would have liked to carry out. Gun works well and I get as much accuracy out of it as I’d expect for an inexperienced pistol shot like me. It is equipped with improvised silencer which does not work as well as I hoped. At a guess it cuts noise down to maybe one third. It is said that it is easy for machinist to make a gun, but of course I did not have machine tools, but only a few files, hacksaw blades, small vice, a rickety hand drill, etc. I took the barrel from an old pneumatic pistol. I made the other parts out of several metal pieces. Most of them come from the old abandoned cars near here. I needed to make the parts with enough precision but I made them well and I’m very satisfied. I want to use the gun as a homicide weapon.
Image
More: http://thehomegunsmith.com/firearm-archive.shtml

It's got nothing to do with the NRA or their 'followers' or the gun industry - it isn't really even about our Constitution as amended or the state constitutions that came before. It's as old as humans on this planet.

As with anything else - any other problem - if one really wants to solve it they should start by determining the root cause. Any other option simply wastes time.
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AndyH
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Re: Gun discussion goes here

Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:13 pm

The Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers were a good start, but understanding requires more digging. The best coverage I've yet found of the transcripts, debates, editorials, and personal letters that resulted in the US Constitution and our Bill of Rights is David E. Young's book I linked earlier.

The paper that follows is useful as well, because it covers some of the significant history in England that predates our country and any of our founding documents. Please note how many times arms were confiscated prior to a government take-over, and also note that enemies of Britain credit the public's skill with arms as the deciding factor in their victory, and the lack of skilled marksmen as the reason their country lost.

http://www.amazon.com/Origin-Second-Ame ... 0962366439
The Origin of the Second Amendment: A Documentary History of the Bill of Rights in Commentaries on Liberty, Free Government & an Armed Populace 1787-1792 2nd Edition
http://constitution.org/2ll/2ndschol/89vand.pdf
THE HISTORY OF THE SECOND AMENDMENT
DAVID E. VANDERCOY*

*Professor of Law, Valparaiso University School of Law.
... My purpose is much narrower. I will address the history of the Second Amendment and attempt to define its original intent. I will not suggest that original intent is controlling. On this point, I am reminded that George Washington once suggested, "Individuals entering into society, must give up a share of liberty to preserve the rest. The magnitude of the sacrifice must (pg.1009) depend as well on situation and circumstance, as on the object to be obtained."6

The purpose of this Article is only to define those shares of liberty the Framers intended to retain and those given up in the context of the Second Amendment. By way of preview, this Article will contend that the original intent of the Second Amendment was to protect each individual's right to keep and bear arms, and to guarantee that individuals acting collectively could throw off the yokes of any oppressive government which might arise. Thus, the right envisioned was not only the right to be armed, but to be armed at a level equal to the government.

To determine the original intent of the Second Amendment, this Article will examine the history of armed citizens in England, the Federalist and Antifederalist debates, the meaning of the word "militia," the constitutional ratification process, and the various state constitutions in existence at the time.
That the 2A was intended to be an individual right completely separate from military or militia service is just as certain as our freedom of speech was not intended to be limited by one's vocation.

Also of note is that the Founders intended that we have personal access and skill with arms at least as capable as those used by the militia or that an invading army might use. That really changes the nature of the modern push to ban and/or destroy "assault style weapons" which are actually semi-automatic rifles and not select fire (automatic) that modern militaries use.
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AndyH
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Re: Gun discussion goes here

Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:25 pm

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/04/armed-h ... orshipers/
An anti-Muslim hate group planned an armed protest at an African-American mosque in Texas — but it didn’t go as planned.

The group, the Bureau of American Islamic Relations, or BAIR, has made it a habit in the past to show up at mosques with firearms and intimidate worshipers. In November, armed protesters stalked Muslims in Irving. In December, they again stalked Muslims at the Islamic Association of North Texas.

But on Saturday, the group that makes a show of carrying guns while they surround places of worship was met in-kind at a Nation of Islam mosque in South Dallas, the Dallas Morning News reports.

AndyH
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Re: Gun discussion goes here

Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:21 pm

http://www.fox2detroit.com/news/local-n ... 3818-story
"The lady kept saying 'I'm dying, someone help' and it was just natural reaction," says Sarder. "I just see this lady getting stabbed. I only had like half a second to think and I unholstered my firearm and pointed it at her to drop the knife."...

FOX 2: "You probably saved this woman's life."

"I hope so, I hope she makes it," Sarder says. "Maybe those few seconds before the police arrived could be the difference between life and death."
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WetEV
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Re: Gun discussion goes here

Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:08 pm

WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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WetEV
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Re: Gun discussion goes here

Sun Apr 24, 2016 6:17 am

WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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AndyH
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Re: Gun discussion goes here

Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:00 pm

WetEV wrote:<snips>

What part of "well regulated" are we failing on?
What does "well regulated" mean to you, Wet? Let's start with your definition, if you please.
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