Page 1 of 128

Denial...was CC- What do we know, when did we know it?

Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:15 pm
by AndyH
Not sure what to leave here. This started out as a climate change - facts only! thread. Then it was attacked by a pair of resident climate deniers and assisted by a couple of members that kept egging them on. The moderators refused to step in - and my attempts to force the issue got me temp-banned from the forum. I appealed to the forum owner to at the very least have this thread moved to this cesspool so that it didn't reflect poorly on the community as this is supposed to be an area not indexed by search engines.

Should the thread be maintained, cleaned, and allowed to carry on? Or should it be deleted from the forum? Please make your voices heard. Thanks in advance.

yet another edit...no idea why the forum reverted the title...we're not ready for that yet...

Re: Climate Change: What Do We Know and When Did We Know It?

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 5:20 pm
by AndyH
.

Re: Climate Change: What Do We Know and When Did We Know It?

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:15 am
by Nekota
Relying more on natural gas than on coal would not significantly slow down the effects of climate change, even though direct carbon dioxide emissions would be less, a new study has found.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/09/ ... 6Z20110909" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is an interesting article comparing natural gas impact on global warming to the impact of coal. If the coal has enough sulfur and particulates then it reduces the heat flux - I wonder if smog reduces the temperature too?

Re: Climate Change: What Do We Know and When Did We Know It?

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:16 am
by Herm
Its the Warmers vs the Deniers until the bitter end, the Skeptics will stay by the side lines and watch the religious wars.

It was inevitable that humanity was going to exploit fossil fuels until they are economically exhausted, you cant bypass free fuel that you suck out of the ground, and at the beginning you did not even had to suck very hard to get it. It probably happens to every civilization in the universe. We probably will survive it.

Re: Climate Change: What Do We Know and When Did We Know It?

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:02 am
by Smidge204
Herm wrote:Its the Warmers vs the Deniers until the bitter end, the Skeptics will stay by the side lines and watch the religious wars.
Unfortunately, many of the "Skeptics" are actually deniers trying to increase their credibility by changing their label. When you have to quote mine research and make up data to refute the science, you're not a skeptic.

Herm wrote:It was inevitable that humanity was going to exploit fossil fuels until they are economically exhausted, you cant bypass free fuel that you suck out of the ground, and at the beginning you did not even had to suck very hard to get it. It probably happens to every civilization in the universe. We probably will survive it.
We are already at the point where renewable energy - in nearly all forms - is economically preferable. All you need to do is look past the initial costs and look at things in 10+ year operational periods. We continue to use fossil fuels out of habit more than for any rational reason. The "addiction" metaphor is extremely apt.
=Smidge=

Re: Climate Change: What Do We Know and When Did We Know It?

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:04 am
by Herm
All religious fanatics will do weird things in the name of their faith.

"We continue to use fossil fuels out of habit more than for any rational reason"

Not quite there yet, give it another 20-50 years or so.. lots and lots of expensive infrastructure to depreciate yet.. but when the time comes it will be all abandoned. Coal will be used by chemical industry long after they stop burning it.

We really need to get a new generation of safe nukes up and running, and thoroughly tested.. any new nuke design takes decades to be fully vetted... and smaller nukes please, no more 1000MW behemoths. More economical storage for wind would be a good idea also, right now its expensive. We may have to get used to expensive once the cheap fossils are gone.

Re: Climate Change: What Do We Know and When Did We Know It?

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:04 am
by AndyH
Herm wrote:Its the Warmers vs the Deniers until the bitter end, the Skeptics will stay by the side lines and watch the religious wars.

It was inevitable that humanity was going to exploit fossil fuels until they are economically exhausted, you cant bypass free fuel that you suck out of the ground, and at the beginning you did not even had to suck very hard to get it. It probably happens to every civilization in the universe. We probably will survive it.
I think, Herm, that suggesting there's a real debate between 'warmers VS. deniers' does nothing more than give deniers credibility while keeping the FUD alive - and FUD is exactly the product the deniers are peddling. The true skeptics are the scientists - skepticism is built into the scientific method. Science is in the trenches working the problem while the deniers are spreading their misinformation in the press. On the rare occasion when deniers step into the scientific ring they don't survive the peer review process (or apparently basics of either math or science).

For a graphic example of the artificiality of the 'debate' we can see a real climate scientist debating a meteorologist in the denial camp. One uses data and and conservative statements. The other says models are bad, the data is bad, and simply casts doubt while not providing support for their position or an alternative interpretation.

Oct 12, 2010 University of Virginia Law School. Speakers: Dr. Dessler (climate scientist from Texas A&M) and Dr. Lindzen (meteorologist from MIT and outspoken denier). Two UVA law professors discuss policy and economics after the debate (starting at about 1:21:00). Note that they toss Lindzen aside immediately...



One of Dr. Dessler's recent papers on the function of clouds in climate change:
http://geotest.tamu.edu/userfiles/216/Dessler2011.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



This was published as a rebuttal to papers published by Lindzen and another by Spencer (both denialists) that resulted in the resignation of the editor of the journal in which Spencer's paper was published.
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/201 ... energy.ars" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.mdpi.com/2072-4292/3/9/2002/pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As clearly outlined by Oreskes in the video at the top of this thread (and in her book), the deniers at work fighting climate science today are simply the out of work refugees from yesterday's work to mask the sources of emissions that brought us acid rain, damage to the planet's ozone layer, negative health effects of tobacco, and damage caused by DDT. They're not deniers - they're just paid shills.

Herm, we're at a crossroads today. While I'll agree with you that we 'can' continue to burn oil until we run out, I hope you can agree that it's a choice that we do not 'have' to make. Earlier cultures on this planet have been at their version of our crossroads and have decided to stay the course. It didn't turn out well. Watch this clip from 53:35 to 55:40.


Re: Climate Change: What Do We Know and When Did We Know It?

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:40 am
by JimSouCal
The elephant in the room is: the biggest driver of climate change is a growing population of folks whose lives are interwoven with an oil and gas intensive lifestyle. I wouldn't exactly expect to see a line of volunteers to reduce the problem in short order.

Re: Climate Change: What Do We Know and When Did We Know It?

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:50 am
by TRONZ
In the past few years the world has been having unprecedented weather events one after the other. This is not theory or speculation. It is now a matter of record. Speculating about an unknown future creates a playground for deniers to dance around in. Let's stop doing this! Their is no longer any reason to theorize or speculate about anything. Climate Change has started. The dramatic uptick in weather related deaths is not a theory, it is reality!

Re: Climate Change: What Do We Know and When Did We Know It?

Posted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:56 am
by TomT
Just to play devil's advocate here for a moment, a few years is statistically insignificant. There have been numerous periods of similar intense weather patterns over the centuries. I'm not saying that there isn't a long-term shift in patterns in affect, just that you can't draw any meaningful conclusions from something that happens over only 3, 4 or 5 years...
TRONZ wrote:In the past few years the world has been having unprecedented weather events one after the other. This is not theory or speculation. It is now a matter of record. Speculating about an unknown future creates a playground for deniers to dance around in. Let's stop doing this! Their is no longer any reason to theorize or speculate about anything. Climate Change has started. The dramatic uptick in weather related deaths is not a theory, it is reality!