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Re: Denial...was CC- What do we know, when did we know it?

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:22 pm
by AndyH
dhanson865 wrote:
AndyH wrote:I can't speak for or against the Club of Rome or their goals. It does appear that we're hovering near the upper part of an oil-fed population overshoot, though. It's too late to get out pain-free, but I think we can still choose what part of our anatomy we'll land on when we slide down the super-fossil-fuel-water-slide. ;)
Back when gas was $5.00 in my hometown and it didn't look like it would drop below $4 any time soon I would have back you up on that sentiment.

But since then not only has gas dropped in price we also have:

lots more solar power
Tesla (and other viable EVs)

I personally could do all my driving on solar power alone. I don't need gas to make it to work or to play or to get goods.

Now I know that UPS/FEDEX/USPS aren't as able to get off the hydrocarbons on a moments notice but I see a path forward and think the economy can adjust without failing completely.

I would like to see population decline at a mild rate instead of in some sort of calamity but I can't predict that one and won't try to control it.
Part of the challenge I've personally had as I tried to understand how to make my own life as close to carbon negative as possible was to find all the things that would be impaired if aliens took all the fossil remnants off this planet. I have yet to find anything - from the plastic keyboard I'm typing on, or the CAT-5 cable running to my router, or the broadband cable running through the neighborhood, to food, electricity, to even the plastic panels or polymer separators in my BEV's battery that would remain.

I assure you - this isn't my thesis and it's coming from more than just one political view, faction, or background. This civilization we're surfing is a very fragile construct and I'm very, very surprised how thinly we've engineered our support structures and how much of the resilience we've lost in this country in just one generation.

Truly - watch the Crash Course from Martinson. Read any of Lester Brown's books. That'll give you a view from a scientist and former Wall St analyst, and an environmentalist and author. The same message comes from many different directions and many different viewpoints.

Broad brush: Peak oil (and the derivative peak fertilizer, peak herbicide, peak insecticide, which results in our current food bubble); peak iron/aluminum/copper (how many EVs do we need and where will we get all the batteries and motors?); the oceans are between 70 and 90% 'at capacity', overfished, or extinct depending on the source; peak clean water; and we're using more than 1.7 Earth's worth of ecosystem services (clean air, the rest of the raw materials, waste processing).

Re: Denial...was CC- What do we know, when did we know it?

Posted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 9:19 pm
by AndyH

Re: Denial...was CC- What do we know, when did we know it?

Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:32 am
by AndyH
Just in case anyone believes that 'everyone' was concerned about an ice age in the '70s...

Re: Denial...was CC- What do we know, when did we know it?

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 2:36 pm
by AndyH ... 8195674112
Policy makers who deny basic scientific truth should also be denied penicillin, horseless carriages, air time on the magic box of shadows ... 7323316226
*brings a knife to a gunfight*

Don't worry. Some idiot once brought a snowball to a senate debate

Here here - about that snowball thing? Don't denigrate real idiots like that! :evil: ;)

Re: Denial...was CC- What do we know, when did we know it?

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:56 pm
by AndyH ... nform-you/
(The full article is posted below. The original is full of links - sources and examples are fully documented there.)
The Washington Post Should Tell You When Its Columnists Are Paid to Disinform You
If you’re getting paid to advocate for the destruction of the world as we know it, shouldn’t you at least let people know?

The Washington Post apparently doesn’t think so.

The Post regularly publishes columns by Ed Rogers, a veteran of the Reagan/Bush administration turned lobbyist. His most recent column (4/20/15) is an attack on President Barack Obama for thinking that global warming is important:
Incredibly, in Sunday’s weekly video address, President Obama said, “Today, there is no greater threat to our planet than climate change.” I say “incredibly” because that just isn’t true—and if President Obama really believes it is, then it is time to panic. Given the state of the world and the urgent problems facing us that directly affect our prospects for peace and prosperity, global warming shouldn’t even be in the top five on the list of problems our president should be worrying about.
What are the many things more important than climate change? Um, the Ukraine crisis. Concern that “the United States is retreating from global leadership.” And “at home, economic growth is anemic and job creation has stalled.” There are other threats greater than global warming, too—at least two more, apparently—but Rogers doesn’t specify them.

His case for climate change not being a significant problem is, if anything, less detailed:
So why would our president say global warming is our biggest threat? Probably because it suits his ideology and his management style. The truth is, if you accept at face value everything he says about climate change, there is nothing he can do in the 20 months he has left in office that will appreciably affect the climate.
That’s pretty much it, before Rogers concludes, “Let’s hope somewhere there are advisers telling him that urgent matters need his focus and global warming is simply not the priority that he wants it to be.” There’s nothing about sea level rise, crop failures, disease expansion, ocean acidification, etc.

So why would you ignore all the negative consequences of rapidly changing the Earth’s climate, and insist that instead of doing anything about it, we ought to meet a vague list of other problems with an even vaguer gesture toward supposed solutions (e.g., “There is also a lot he could do to take the reins and provide American leadership around the world”)? Well, maybe you’re paid to do just that.

The Post‘s bio for Rogers notes that he “is the chairman of the lobbying and communications firm BGR Group,” but it doesn’t give any clue who his clients are. Luckily, lobbyists are required by law to disclose their clients, a fact the media critic known as @crushingbort made good use of:
it’s cool the Washington Post can run columns by @EdRogersDC downplaying global warming w/o disclosing his income
— Dupont Cashbundle (@crushingbort) April 22, 2015
And that’s just last year; in 2013, BGR got another $590,000 from Chevron, and $450,000 in 2012. In 2011, they got a million dollars form Gas Natural SDG, a Spanish methane-burning utility. And on and on.

What do you get when you give BGR that kind of money? Among other things, you get an employee who has a regular platform in the Washington Post, and has no qualms about advancing opinions that boost his clients’ profits. Don’t think that isn’t mentioned when the agency is soliciting business.
It’s not clear how Post readers benefit from regular exposure to a lobbyist promoting his clients’ interests, but at the very least they should be informed that there is a connection between the views Rogers is espousing and the checks he is cashing.

Recently, Newsweek published an op-ed (4/11/15) attacking subsidies for wind power—and later put a note on it acknowledging that it was lacking in the disclosure department.
Editor’s note: The author of this piece, Randy Simmons, is the Charles G. Koch professor of political economy at Utah State University. He’s also a senior fellow at the Koch- and ExxonMobil-funded Property and Environment Research Center. These ties to the oil industry weren’t originally disclosed in this piece.
Newsweek (4/21/15) also published a rebuttal to the piece, providing an alternative view of wind power that wasn’t funded by the fossil fuel industry.

For many years, Newsweek and the Washington Post were owned by the same company. Will the Post follow its former corporate sibling’s example and let its readers know that its columnist was expressing the views that he’s paid to promote?

ACTION: Please ask the Washington Post to disclose when its columnists are writing about issues that they are paid to lobby about–as with the recent column on climate change by Ed Rogers. Remember that respectful communication is the most effective.


Washington Post op-ed editor Michael Larabee
Twitter: @PostOpinions

Re: Denial...was CC- What do we know, when did we know it?

Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 4:51 pm
by mbender
^^^^ Amaz[on]ing. But what else would you expect from a liberal rag that was scooped up by a limousine-liberal, left-coast "librarian" (lol)?? Why, a liberal bias, of course!

Re: Denial...was CC- What do we know, when did we know it?

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:20 pm
by AndyH
The Heartland Institute attempts to teach the Pope about climate...
“The Holy Father is being misled by ‘experts’ at the United Nations who have proven unworthy of his trust,” said Heartland Institute President Joseph Bast. “Humans are not causing a climate crisis on God’s Green Earth—in fact, they are fulfilling their Biblical duty to protect and use it for the benefit of humanity. Though Pope Francis’s heart is surely in the right place, he would do his flock and the world a disservice by putting his moral authority behind the United Nations’ unscientific agenda on the climate,” said Bast. ... e-francis/

When Jorge Mario Bergoglio was a young man, he graduated from technical school as a Chemical Technician. He then earned his Masters Degree in chemistry from the University of Buenos Aries. It was only after that that he decided to become a priest. ... ientist-2/

Yup... Pope Francis was trained and worked for a time as a chemist.

Can we have a planetary denier exorcism, please? Yes - super-size it. :lol:

Re: Denial...was CC- What do we know, when did we know it?

Posted: Sun May 03, 2015 10:28 pm
by AndyH
Practically speaking, the opponents to a reform in Massachusetts are not a hundred thousand politicians at the South, but a hundred thousand merchants and farmers here, who are more interested in commerce and agriculture than they are in humanity, and are not prepared to do justice to the slave and to Mexico, cost what it may. I quarrel not with far-off foes, but with those who, near at home, co-operate with, and do the bidding of, those far away, and without whom the latter would be harmless. We are accustomed to say, that the mass of men are unprepared; but improvement is slow, because the few are not as materially wiser or better than the many. It is not so important that many should be good as you, as that there be some absolute goodness somewhere; for that will leaven the whole lump. There are thousands who are in opinion opposed to slavery and to the war, who yet in effect do nothing to put an end to them; who, esteeming themselves children of Washington and Franklin, sit down with their hands in their pockets, and say that they know not what to do, and do nothing; who even postpone the question of freedom to the question of free trade, and quietly read the prices-current along with the latest advices from Mexico, after dinner, and, it may be, fall asleep over them both. What is the price-current of an honest man and patriot today? They hesitate, and they regret, and sometimes they petition; but they do nothing in earnest and with effect. They will wait, well disposed, for others to remedy the evil, that they may no longer have it to regret.
Henry David Thoreau, "On Resistance to Civil Government" 1849

Re: Denial...was CC- What do we know, when did we know it?

Posted: Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:34 am
by Stoaty
NOAA Study Confirms Global Warming Speed-Up Is Imminent: ... -speed-up/" onclick=";return false; ... years.html" onclick=";return false;

Hmmm... turns out there wasn't really a slowdown after all. :o

Still warming after all these years.

Re: Denial...was CC- What do we know, when did we know it?

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:32 pm
by Reddy
Well, at the risk of re-opening a huge thread..... Here is an interesting article about ocean acidification: ... ification/
The article is extremely well-written and provides more accurate, and less inflammatory information than I've read on that particular site in the past. The reason I decided to post: It mentioned Taylor Shellfish in Shelton, WA.

For those who aren't in the know, "TaylorSFGuy," the Leaf mileage leader and regular poster on MNL, works at this company. ... 49#p432849

So, here is a person and company that is directly affected by dumping CO2 into the atmosphere, and someone who took action. Congratulations Steve and thank you for your effort! We look forward to seeing you reach 150,000 mi in your 2011 Leaf.