AndyH
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Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:00 pm

derkraut wrote:
AndyH wrote:http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035 ... ts/3271930

Rainy night in Ferguson. The curfew is in effect. The community has been policing themselves. Uniformed police are lined up 'protecting' the nail shop. The media is restricted to a small corral and they had to register with the police to be allowed to stay. There are still people on the street, including reps from Amnesty International and other groups, but a county SUV just parked between the crowd and the press pen so it's difficult to see what's happening.

What a goat rope.

And...a few protesters stood their ground. The police brought at least 4 armored vehicles, deployed combat troops, and lobbed so much tear gas that they had to stop from time to time so they could see to aim the next volley. I guess the St Police captain misspoke when he said they would not use gas to enforce the curfew...

For Klap: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... al-discord
Andy: If you owned and operated a business in Ferguson, MO (or anywhere, for that matter), and a bunch of thugs broke in to your business and began looting and trashing your property, would you expect law enforcement to stand by and watch, or would you expect them to apprehend the law-breakers, and protect your property?
Kraut, did you read the businessweek article? Did you listen to the St Louis public radio interviews I linked earlier?

I expect that you want me to put on my business owner hat, stand inside with locked doors and my hand over the alarm system's panic button, with a body full of adrenalin. I further expect, from our past communication and from assumptions based on the demographics of this board that I'm a white business owner and I'm afraid of the black-skinned potential looters waiting behind every bush. Close?

First, sir, I do operate a business and have worked jobs serving the public. Additionally, I've lived on the east side of this metro area for a bit over 9 years. Because of that, I think your question is irrelevant.

If you were tied into the information flow from Ferguson (twitter (from citizens and local politicians), facebook, citizen journalists, and indie journalists in the area), you'd already know that the police have been the problem. You'd also know that there is a small (possibly fewer than 10) group - at least one from Chicago and some number from Oakland - that are in the area causing trouble. These are the folks that lobbed a Molotov cocktail last night and started a fire outside a restaurant. What did the local protesters do? They ran through the tear gas to put the fire out. You'd also know that local citizens have been guarding shops - not the police.

The problem in Ferguson, derkraut, is the attitude and practices of the police force, local politicians, and some business owners. Communities such as this are essentially 'farmed' and bled dry for cash flow for these businesses. The police force is more like an army of occupation than a part of the community (it's pretty clear that the police force isn't part of the community at all). These people work FOR the citizens of Ferguson, not the other way around.

If I operated a business in Ferguson and had been preying on the population, karma says I deserve to have my building burned to the ground. If, on the other hand, I operated a business that served the area and if I was part of the community, then I wouldn't be afraid of being attacked to begin with. And if I was part of this community, business owner or not, and became aware of this level of abuse by the police, I'd board up my windows and be in the streets because no human being deserves to be livestock in a corporate farm.

Here's some quality policing...not...
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2014/0 ... er-curfew/
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dhanson865
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Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:20 pm

AndyH wrote: "Fun fact"... It's a violation of the Geneva Convention/Protol and international law to use teargas in combat as it's a chemical weapon.
dhanson865 wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:
Depends who you ask apparently. I found this when I google to see if that was true.

http://www.state.gov/t/isn/4784.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;[/quote
For something I thought to be more cut and dry there were way more "weasel words" than I expected. Phrases like "some nations", "generally observed", "there was strong lobbying against it, and the Senate never voted on it", "United States was not willing to agree to prohibit the use", "countries strongly criticized the United States for using tear gas", "The United States denied that the protocol applied", "During the debate the U.S. Representative stated that it would be up to each country to decide whether or how to adhere to the protocol", "Interpretation of the protocol remained a thorny problem", "advocate of the broad interpretation, stressed the danger of escalation if nonlethal chemical agents were permitted. She also pointed out that the military use of tear gases should be distinguished from their use for riot control", "American interpretation of the protocol".

I assumed the site would just put the current stance and make it clear what is or isn't allowed but there seems to be documentation or at least hints that the policy was interpreted differently over the years by many players. I didn't expect to see so many references on a US government web site on what might be negative PR for the US government.

If that makes me naive or shows a lack of knowledge of the history of this issue forgive me but I though it was worth looking at for those that don't know, like I didn't.
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AndyH
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Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:40 pm

dhanson865 wrote:<snip>

If that makes me naive or shows a lack of knowledge of the history of this issue forgive me but I though it was worth looking at for those that don't know, like I didn't.
Cool - thanks for the view. I agree completely - pages like that, crafted by lawyers and politicians, are full of weasel words and loopholes. In terms of civil use - I agree completely - military/wartime use is different - that's the absurd contrast I wanted to highlight.
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AndyH
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Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:05 pm

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035 ... ts/3271930
Livestream of this morning's memorial service for Mike Brown.

The press is still under 'attack' in Ferguson.

Journalists that opted to stay in their 'pen' last night complained that if they followed the police rules they were stuck from the start of the curfew at midnight until 5AM. They were given the choice to leave the area before curfew or stay in 'house arrest' until morning. Additionally, they were kept well away from the subjects of their reporting and were often blocked by police vehicles.

Some journalists left the pen and while they got better coverage they were threatened by police.

A few indie journalists and citizens risked injury and arrest in order to document from the streets.

From the press pen:

Credo Action



Vice:

https://twitter.com/Timcast
http://instagram.com/timcast
https://twitter.com/thementalward
https://twitter.com/alicesperi


From the streets:
Human Rights Watch
https://twitter.com/AlbaHRW
https://twitter.com/MariaMHRW

Infowars
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/51464691

Local musicians/activists/citizens/politicians
https://twitter.com/AntonioFrench
https://twitter.com/TefPoe
https://twitter.com/Haiku_RS
http://www.reddit.com/live/tdrph3y49ftn/

Video from the streets - documents tear gas and long-range acustic device (LRAD) use and that locals put out a fire.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154488020640375
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154488087365375

Congressman Lacy Clay from St Louis - no confidence in Ferguson police


Further to this:
http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2014/0 ... er-curfew/
We have this:
7 Arrested in Ferguson Were Sitting in Cars, Some Were Dragged Out by Hair

**Arrestees are available for interviews.**

Two different groups totalling seven people, charged with failure to disperse, were arrested in Ferguson this morning at approximately 1:30am. Five out of the seven people were released this morning at 7am. The Legal Support Team picked the arrestees up from the Buzz Westfall Justice Center in Clayton and received the following report of how arrests happened last night.

The first group was comprised of five people who had been at the Justice for Mike Brown march earlier in the evening. After leaving the march, they went to the home of one of their aunt’s on Kirk Drive. They were sitting in their parked car in front of the house smoking a cigarette when a swarm of police officers dressed in fatigues and what the arrestees describe as “military garb” rushed the car, put guns in their faces, and began pulling them out of the car. Two young women were pulled out of the car by their hair, and one was dragged through the dirt. All were told they were resisting arrest.

The second group was comprised of two people who were sitting in a parked car in a parking lot. Police instructed them to pull out of the parking lot and go home. As they pulled out of the parking lot, police pointed a rifle at them and directed them into the street. Police told them to stop the vehicle. After they stopped, an officer shot a rubber or wooden bullet straight into the windshield, cracking it. The two people in the car then stepped out and were arrested.

The Legal Support Team continues to be concerned about the ever escalating militarization of the police and what seems to be indiscriminate targeting of Ferguson residents.

“It feels like I’m not human. It feels like I’m being treated like an animal--being told when I can come, when I can go, what time I can be out in my own community outside of my own house where I pay the mortgage and bills,” said Cieara Delaney, one of the women arrested outside of the house and dragged by her hair.

Missourians Organizing for Reform and Empowerment (MORE) is the community group that is currently hosting the collection of donations for the legal support fund. The legal support line for those who are in jail or who know those needing legal support is 314-862-2249. Donations can be made https://bitly.com/fergusonbailfund.
http://www.organizemo.org/statement_on_ ... pport_team
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apvbguy
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Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:44 pm

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AndyH
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Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:51 pm

Amnesty International has 12 member observation team in Ferguson.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/press-re ... n-missouri

Human Rights Watch has folks on the ground as well.

https://twitter.com/AlbaHRW
https://twitter.com/MariaMHRW
https://twitter.com/NatalieHRWSouth

Legal and human rights observers were reported to be wearing green ball caps last night.
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Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:54 pm

AndyH wrote:Amnesty International has 12 member observation team in Ferguson.
are they above the law? or are they inherently permitted to violate a lawful curfew?
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AndyH
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Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:00 pm

Thanks - the video in question was linked in this thread. Here's another direct witness - strongly suggests the 'conservative treehouse' analysis is off.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/neighb ... 1JB5elh.99

Recall that the guy that was with Mike Brown said that the two teens were in the street when a vehicle police car (not truck) pulled up so closely that the officer couldn't open the car door - and was able to grab Brown's arm from the seated position inside the car. A number of other direct witnesses said that the boys got free and ran, that brown was shot twice in the back, then turned with his hands in the air and was shot approximately 5 times.

Edit... I'm seeing other reports that suggest that the police officers where in some type of truck. I don't know if they were in a patrol car or pickup or SUV. I've edited the post. Sorry for the bad info.
Last edited by AndyH on Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AndyH
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Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:06 pm

apvbguy wrote:
AndyH wrote:Amnesty International has 12 member observation team in Ferguson.
are they above the law? or are they inherently permitted to violate a lawful curfew?
I watched multiple live-streams overnight and saw green-hat observers on the streets. As they were there to observe the police response, I wasn't surprised to see them milling among the police or moving back to a parking lot to do what appeared to be coordinating/conferring. I've evaluated military exercises in my 'past life' and the observers appeared to be performing the same function as an exercise inspection team.

Members of the police and press were also "permitted to violate" the curfew, if you want to see it that way.
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apvbguy
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Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:18 pm

AndyH wrote:
apvbguy wrote:
AndyH wrote:Amnesty International has 12 member observation team in Ferguson.
are they above the law? or are they inherently permitted to violate a lawful curfew?
I watched multiple live-streams overnight and saw green-hat observers on the streets. As they were there to observe the police response, I wasn't surprised to see them milling among the police or moving back to a parking lot to do what appeared to be coordinating/conferring. I've evaluated military exercises in my 'past life' and the observers appeared to be performing the same function as an exercise inspection team.

Members of the police and press were also "permitted to violate" the curfew, if you want to see it that way.
your vague response doesn't in anyway address my question, where they given a "pass" to violate the curfew or were they violating the law?
new question, who invited these "observers"?
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