kubel
Posts: 1609
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:38 am
Leaf Number: 19628
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:22 pm

klapauzius wrote:In that case, you have no rights, since you cannot possibly beat the state.
There are two barriers blocking people from taking the path of resistance: Respect for authority, and self-preservation. I have no respect for the concept of authority, since I believe it makes a moral claim of ownership on someone else's life that they do not have. That leaves self-preservation. To go up against the state is like going up against a fire breathing dragon. In one step I'm crushed, or in one breath I'm consumed. But this dragon is merely a projection of the people who support it. It doesn't exist in reality any more than Allah exists. Oh, sure, there are many Muslims who would disagree, and who would be willing to cut off my head if I insulted Allah, but Allah himself cannot rain hellfire upon me or strike me down, because Allah is merely a idea in the minds of people.

The state is merely an idea designed to support and legitimize the ruling and ownership of other humans and the fruit of their labor. And that's not to suggest there's some sinister motive behind it. It is to say, however, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. My best offense strategy against the state is the same strategy I would use against Allah. I would target the believers, and not with acts of violence, but acts of persuasion. The only way, in my mind, to end the cult of state worship is to convince the cult members to stop worshiping it.

On the other hand, "Give me liberty or give me death" certainly has some truth to it. There's only so much abuse I can take from the state, but any such action would be suicide. I would have to love death more than being subservient to an abusive master. Frankly, the way I feel right now is that living in misery sucks marginally less than dying in it. I would rather take the peaceful approach of showing people the immorality of the actions people take in the name of the state- maybe start with something as simple as the Milgram Experiment to show the immorality of authority and work from there. Or just show them evidence of repulsive acts by agents of the state that would make any freedom loving individual sick.

So when rights are abused, or when someone violates the non-aggression principle, picking up a gun in defense may be morally justified- but it may also mean your end.
2012 Nissan LEAF SV
20% degradation in 42k miles
Leased 5-17-2012, Returned 1-15-2016


2017 Chevy Volt LT
Siren Red Tintcoat
Leased 10-21-2016

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:00 pm

dhanson865 wrote:
AndyH wrote: "Fun fact"... It's a violation of the Geneva Convention/Protol and international law to use teargas in combat as it's a chemical weapon.
Depends who you ask apparently. I found this when I google to see if that was true.

http://www.state.gov/t/isn/4784.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Why do you think it depends on who one asks?
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:09 pm

http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035 ... ts/3271930

Rainy night in Ferguson. The curfew is in effect. The community has been policing themselves. Uniformed police are lined up 'protecting' the nail shop. The media is restricted to a small corral and they had to register with the police to be allowed to stay. There are still people on the street, including reps from Amnesty International and other groups, but a county SUV just parked between the crowd and the press pen so it's difficult to see what's happening.

What a goat rope.

And...a few protesters stood their ground. The police brought at least 4 armored vehicles, deployed combat troops, and lobbed so much tear gas that they had to stop from time to time so they could see to aim the next volley. I guess the St Police captain misspoke when he said they would not use gas to enforce the curfew...

For Klap: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... al-discord
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

donald
Posts: 917
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:45 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Jul 2013

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:42 am

AndyH wrote:I think it's important to remember that the US Constitution doesn't 'grant' rights - it limits the government from restricting rights that were and continue to be deemed to be self-evident.

On the overall rights picture and action of federal, state, or local officials...they work for us and that puts the responsibility on us to make sure we know our rights, their rights, and make sure that we raise our voices if things get out of balance. It doesn't matter if it's a fist, thigh bone, slingshot, or .50 cal machine gun - restraint starts in the human heart and mind and so does freedom.
Not sure I implied anything in regards whether rights are earned, given or inalienable. But I would tend to be persuaded that they are not really rights unless they are both reasonable and enforceable. I struggle with the 'reasonableness' of bearing arms against your own government these days.

In regards your argument that restraint is immaterial with respect to the weapon, yeah, for sure. But we're talking about the consequences of having that weapon, not whether restraint has been shown or not. If the police officer in this tragedy had shown a lack of restraint with only his fists, we'd not be seeing this demonstration. But you HAVE to arm your police with firearms if the people they might arrest can exercise a 'liberty' to bear arms against the police. The whole point of bearing arms in the US constitution is to resist government tyranny.

Sorry, I think bearing of arms is a bygone concept from a time when it might well have been important. These days, if you overthrow a democratically elected government by force then the whole edifice of social compliance to law and order falls apart. Just look at the consequences of installing an unconstitutional government in Ukraine by force.

donald
Posts: 917
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:45 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Jul 2013

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:46 am

AndyH wrote:"Fun fact"... It's a violation of the Geneva Convention/Protol and international law to use teargas in combat as it's a chemical weapon.
... in warfare, between states that have declared war.

Unfortuntely, law enforcement against the public is not precluded from using these 'inhumane' weapons.

It is a bizarre anomaly, and one which I have already had long dialogues with the UK Government who recommend to the Police the use of hollow tipped ammunition that is otherwise banned as inhumane in warfare for reasons that are misguided and illogical. All UK Police forces now use hollow tipped bullets as standard ammunition which I think is essentially a death sentence if used on the torso.

Go figure.

derkraut
Posts: 1519
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:39 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 004248
Location: San Diego vicinity

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:42 am

AndyH wrote:http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035 ... ts/3271930

Rainy night in Ferguson. The curfew is in effect. The community has been policing themselves. Uniformed police are lined up 'protecting' the nail shop. The media is restricted to a small corral and they had to register with the police to be allowed to stay. There are still people on the street, including reps from Amnesty International and other groups, but a county SUV just parked between the crowd and the press pen so it's difficult to see what's happening.

What a goat rope.

And...a few protesters stood their ground. The police brought at least 4 armored vehicles, deployed combat troops, and lobbed so much tear gas that they had to stop from time to time so they could see to aim the next volley. I guess the St Police captain misspoke when he said they would not use gas to enforce the curfew...

For Klap: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... al-discord
Andy: If you owned and operated a business in Ferguson, MO (or anywhere, for that matter), and a bunch of thugs broke in to your business and began looting and trashing your property, would you expect law enforcement to stand by and watch, or would you expect them to apprehend the law-breakers, and protect your property?
Derkraut
Color: Cayenne SLE, ETEC trim
reserved: 5/15/2010
Leaf del. 6/14/2011
New Traction battery installed on 7/28/2017:

apvbguy
Posts: 1403
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:34 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Apr 2013
Location: Jacksonville FL.

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:52 am

derkraut wrote:
AndyH wrote:http://new.livestream.com/accounts/9035 ... ts/3271930

Rainy night in Ferguson. The curfew is in effect. The community has been policing themselves. Uniformed police are lined up 'protecting' the nail shop. The media is restricted to a small corral and they had to register with the police to be allowed to stay. There are still people on the street, including reps from Amnesty International and other groups, but a county SUV just parked between the crowd and the press pen so it's difficult to see what's happening.

What a goat rope.

And...a few protesters stood their ground. The police brought at least 4 armored vehicles, deployed combat troops, and lobbed so much tear gas that they had to stop from time to time so they could see to aim the next volley. I guess the St Police captain misspoke when he said they would not use gas to enforce the curfew...

For Klap: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... al-discord
Andy: If you owned and operated a business in Ferguson, MO (or anywhere, for that matter), and a bunch of thugs broke in to your business and began looting and trashing your property, would you expect law enforcement to stand by and watch, or would you expect them to apprehend the law-breakers, and protect your property?
normal, old fashioned policing is not in play here, the overly militarized inept barney's are running the show. in other words if you are not one of the looters you're on your own to protect your life and property
WARNING This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm

dhanson865
Moderator
Posts: 1496
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:12 am
Leaf Number: 16156
Location: Tennessee

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:56 am

AndyH wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:
AndyH wrote: "Fun fact"... It's a violation of the Geneva Convention/Protol and international law to use teargas in combat as it's a chemical weapon.
Depends who you ask apparently. I found this when I google to see if that was true.

http://www.state.gov/t/isn/4784.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Why do you think it depends on who one asks?
read the document, several countries argued one way on interpreting the rules, several countries argued another way. The arguments varied by decade and are mentioned in that document though I have to admit it's confusing to figure out who is on which side of that argument by just skimming the narrative.
Blue 2012 Leaf 195/65/15 tires, 15" Rims
Silver 2012 Leaf 16" stock wheels
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index. ... acity_Loss
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

donald
Posts: 917
Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:45 pm
Delivery Date: 29 Jul 2013

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:33 am

dhanson865 wrote:read the document, several countries argued one way on interpreting the rules, several countries argued another way. The arguments varied by decade and are mentioned in that document though I have to admit it's confusing to figure out who is on which side of that argument by just skimming the narrative.
There is no 'argument' put forward. Simply, the convention relates to states at war. Some countries, I am sure, will have ALSO concluded that if it is inhumane in warfare then it logically follows that it is inhumane in civilian use.

Other countries have not sought to consider that point as the convention relates to warfare only.

There is no interpretation of the rules that is necessary. The convention is absolutely specific. If some countries have voluntarily extended the principles to police enforcement then it is an 'extension' of the rules not an 'interpretation'.

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:39 am

AndyH wrote: "Fun fact"... It's a violation of the Geneva Convention/Protol and international law to use teargas in combat as it's a chemical weapon.
dhanson865 wrote:
AndyH wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:
Depends who you ask apparently. I found this when I google to see if that was true.

http://www.state.gov/t/isn/4784.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Why do you think it depends on who one asks?
read the document, several countries argued one way on interpreting the rules, several countries argued another way. The arguments varied by decade and are mentioned in that document though I have to admit it's confusing to figure out who is on which side of that argument by just skimming the narrative.
I did read it, thanks, and I've been trained in these laws and the Laws of Armed Conflict as part of a 21+ year military career. I agree completely that not every country signed-on at the beginning (look at how long it took the US to ratify the chemical weapons ban). But the existence of scattered dissenters doesn't change the fact that most people on the planet find the use of chemical weapons abhorrent.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

Return to “Politics & Other Controversial Topics”