klapauzius
Posts: 1658
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0197
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:06 pm

kubel wrote:I'm not a believer in traditional rights anymore- you know- the kind that are magically bestowed upon us by a deity and then secured by some document that a state promises to obey. The only rights you have are the ones that you are successfully able to defend against a more powerful and more equipped state. The constitution doesn't guarantee rights. The state doesn't protect them. In the end, it's just what they decide to allow us to have.
In that case, you have no rights, since you cannot possibly beat the state.
I guess any individual, no matter how powerful or well armed, will eventually loose to a better organized group of individuals ('state').

So its better to have good agreements and support them. I.e. a constitution with enough people willing to accept and support it.

klapauzius
Posts: 1658
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0197
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:11 pm

donald wrote:As an outsider, erstwhile frequent visitor, and neutral observer of the US - might I ask if you feel I'd be too wide of the mark if I suggest the US still has deeply-rooted racial divisions at its core? I'm not suggesting any particular parties are explicitly racist, though there are sure to be such examples, but when tensions mount it seems to me that old wounds are where social division opens up, and the US seems incapable of putting these things behind them for good.
Given the amounts of incidents mostly involving black people as victims, you are correct.

The other problem(on top of the race issue) is that a policeman around here naturally has to assume that even a simple traffic-ticket-type of encounter could be a potentially lethal situation, since everyone is armed to the teeth.

So whenever you get into a physical altercation (which is what apparently happened in this incident), you have to assume your opponent is armed and thus shooting first is the logical consequence....

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:10 pm

klapauzius wrote:
donald wrote:As an outsider, erstwhile frequent visitor, and neutral observer of the US - might I ask if you feel I'd be too wide of the mark if I suggest the US still has deeply-rooted racial divisions at its core? I'm not suggesting any particular parties are explicitly racist, though there are sure to be such examples, but when tensions mount it seems to me that old wounds are where social division opens up, and the US seems incapable of putting these things behind them for good.
Given the amounts of incidents mostly involving black people as victims, you are correct.

The other problem(on top of the race issue) is that a policeman around here naturally has to assume that even a simple traffic-ticket-type of encounter could be a potentially lethal situation, since everyone is armed to the teeth.

So whenever you get into a physical altercation (which is what apparently happened in this incident), you have to assume your opponent is armed and thus shooting first is the logical consequence....
Deeply rooted racial divisions? Absolutely.

"...since everyone is armed to the teeth." Sorry, have to strongly disagree with this. The problem in places like Ferguson is racial prejudice, militarized police (started during the Reagan years and the transfer of military equipment for the 'war on drugs' and put on steroids after 9/11/2001), and frankly a 'good old boy' attitude super-inflated by military wanna-bees playing dress-up.

Look back at the video - look at the neighborhood streets. This place looks similar to the apartment complex I was in in the 'St Louis Metro East' in Illinois - and when we walked around nobody (drunk or sober!) expected to have police harass us for walking in the street. This city has problems. Look above at the legal aid court survey first, then read this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/1 ... 82679.html
Ferguson police beat then arrest a black man, realize they've got the wrong guy once they get to booking, then charge the innocent victim with bleeding on their uniforms. This is a police force out of control - and it's not an isolated incident.

Unfortunately, we also have to add high unemployment, low minimum wages, and our current phase of hyper-partisanship that leads to observations like this (the first is a photo of the Ferguson police...):

Image

Image
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

klapauzius
Posts: 1658
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0197
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:42 pm

AndyH wrote: "...since everyone is armed to the teeth." Sorry, have to strongly disagree with this. The problem in places like Ferguson is racial prejudice, militarized police (started during the Reagan years and the transfer of military equipment for the 'war on drugs' and put on steroids after 9/11/2001), and frankly a 'good old boy' attitude super-inflated by military wanna-bees playing dress-up.
Strange that these things seem to happen only in the US. Other places have racial prejudice and social problems too, yet few people get shot.

Also, my understanding of the story was, that the officer here was a regular cop, not some
"military wanna-bees playing dress-up"?

If everyone potentially carries a gun, the threat level is naturally higher. Scientific studies have shown, that if you carry a gun, you are much more likely to assume your opponent does too.

If said opponent fits your typical stereotype of a dangerous person( "big black guy"...this is where the racism comes into play), you get a situation like this.

I have the feeling, this case will turn out to be much less black and white (no pun intended) than we initially thought...

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:44 pm

klapauzius wrote:
AndyH wrote: "...since everyone is armed to the teeth." Sorry, have to strongly disagree with this. The problem in places like Ferguson is racial prejudice, militarized police (started during the Reagan years and the transfer of military equipment for the 'war on drugs' and put on steroids after 9/11/2001), and frankly a 'good old boy' attitude super-inflated by military wanna-bees playing dress-up.
Strange that these things seem to happen only in the US. Other places have racial prejudice and social problems too, yet few people get shot.

Also, my understanding of the story was, that the officer here was a regular cop, not some
"military wanna-bees playing dress-up"?

If everyone potentially carries a gun, the threat level is naturally higher. Scientific studies have shown, that if you carry a gun, you are much more likely to assume your opponent does too.

If said opponent fits your typical stereotype of a dangerous person( "big black guy"...this is where the racism comes into play), you get a situation like this.

I have the feeling, this case will turn out to be much less black and white (no pun intended) than we initially thought...
Klap, I've already given you first-hand info and links to current info on exactly this area. I'm telling you as close to your face as I can ;) that this area is one of the most racist areas in which I've lived - and I grew up in Flint, MI in the 1960/70s during the height of 'white flight'. That was a time when southern blacks moved north to work in the auto factories and whites started moving first to the burbs then to surrounding towns because they had to get away.

Just compare/contrast Ferguson over the past couple of days - look at the difference the police posture has made. The community wasn't shooting at the police - but area gun stores have certainly been busy anyway...

http://money.cnn.com/2014/08/14/smallbu ... index.html

The fact that it occurred in Ferguson already puts racism at number 1 on the list - that's why the community has been afraid of the white police force for years, and why the legal center has been documenting abuse of the community by the white establishment. That's also why the new police chief in charge said that race relations is number 1 on his list for this crisis.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... story.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ferguson-mi ... -shooting/
http://www.thetakeaway.org/story/fergus ... flections/
http://www.stlpublicradio.org/programs/ ... -7xmfldWQV
St. Louis has the dubious distinction of being one of the most racially polarized cities in the nation. However, it would be unfair not to acknowledge that many other cities also have had, and still have, problems with race relations. Three black African Americans of separate generations sat down together at the St. Louis History Museum to talk about their experiences growing up black in St. Louis, and their impressions of how the black experience changed for them here over the years. Mariah Richardson is a playwright, actress and teacher. She attended desegregated schools in St. Louis. Donn Johnson is a retired broadcast journalist who grew up on both sides of the Brown vs. Board of Education decision. Percy Green is a lifelong civil rights activist. He was in the vanguard of the civil rights movement in the late fifties through the early sixties, and ever since, primarily as a civil disobedience strategist.
Listen to this piece first, Klap:
http://www.stlpublicradio.org/programs/ ... -black.php
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 5648
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:24 pm

Here you can see the effect of our glorious "War On Drugs", which is really the "War On People We Don't Like".

Image

How much respect for law do you think these people have (and their families), once they finally are released? For over 30 years we've been sowing the wind.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 5648
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:26 pm

...
Last edited by Nubo on Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 5648
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:27 pm

We're Number One!!

Image
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 5648
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:30 pm

.

Image
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

kubel
Posts: 1609
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:38 am
Leaf Number: 19628
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: Ferguson Police Use Tear Gas on Media

Fri Aug 15, 2014 11:55 pm

donald wrote:As an outsider, erstwhile frequent visitor, and neutral observer of the US - might I ask if you feel I'd be too wide of the mark if I suggest the US still has deeply-rooted racial divisions at its core? I'm not suggesting any particular parties are explicitly racist, though there are sure to be such examples, but when tensions mount it seems to me that old wounds are where social division opens up, and the US seems incapable of putting these things behind them for good.
The deeply rooted racist divisions stem mostly from the state. There's extreme disparity in sentencing for crimes and higher likelihood of being arrested if you're black. Minorities in general do get hosed by the "justice" system. This is not an excuse to justify certain behavior or a sense of entitlement, but it certainly doesn't help.
2012 Nissan LEAF SV
20% degradation in 42k miles
Leased 5-17-2012, Returned 1-15-2016


2017 Chevy Volt LT
Siren Red Tintcoat
Leased 10-21-2016

Return to “Politics & Other Controversial Topics”