kentuckyleaf
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:13 am

So Snowden is in Russia, and they are warm and welcoming to him. Do you think they are treating him as a political refugee, or does Snowden have real national security information that he is providing to the Russians? Now that he is in Russia, doesn't he begin to look more like a traitor? If Snowden's data is limited to "The government has access to your e-mail and cell phone data" Wow, that's shocking (like you didn't suspect that already, so he confirmed something you know. big deal) If he has information like, "this is the data you need to shut down the U.S. defense systems" that is really bad. We don't know what information Snowden is providing to the Russians, but if he is in Russia, it likely is not in the best interest of your personal freedoms. I can't say that he is a hero, when I'm asked to keep something confidential, that is what I do. I don't think Snowden is stopping a hitler, really, do you?
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TomT
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:08 am

No, I still think he provided a very much need public service and a check and balance on our government and its actions.
kentuckyleaf wrote:So Snowden is in Russia, and they are warm and welcoming to him. Do you think they are treating him as a political refugee, or does Snowden have real national security information that he is providing to the Russians? Now that he is in Russia, doesn't he begin to look more like a traitor?
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:35 am

derkraut wrote:+1 There you go; I guess folks nowadays don't know how to spell integrity. This guy should be executed for treason. :evil:
So should George Washington.
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ebill3
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:49 am

TomT wrote:No, I still think he provided a very much need public service and a check and balance on our government and its actions.
Back to high school civics, Tom. We have a system of checks and balances, and while not perfect, it has served us well for these many years since the founding.

We do not need sniveling little weasels like Snowden and Manning with their holier than thou attitude and perceived higher moral standards to protect us. All they accomplish is to provide aid and comfort to our potential adversaries.

I rarely enter into discussions of this type, but those disgusting and deceitful banes of society have to be addressed.

The OP enjoined us to "play nice". Well, what I've said is nice; you don't want to hear it if I remove the gloves.
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Smidge204
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:10 am

ebill3 wrote:I rarely enter into discussions of this type, but those disgusting and deceitful banes of society have to be addressed.
...you're talking about the politicians, right?

People who operate in service of the public need to be accountable to the public. That can only happen if the public knows what's going on. The problem with your attitude is what criteria is used to define "potential adversaries" - just imagine if this was any other government in any other place or time in human history and the consequences of that attitude of yours would have on the citizens.

If Ahmadinejad or Kim Jong Un were doing it, would it be okay with you?
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ebill3
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:19 pm

Smidge204 wrote:
ebill3 wrote:I rarely enter into discussions of this type, but those disgusting and deceitful banes of society have to be addressed.
...you're talking about the politicians, right?
Yes, politicians are sometimes disgusting and deceitful, but in general compared to Edward Snowden and Bradley Manning, they are fine citizens doing the public's work. (Whew, that last phrase was hard to get on paper.)

People who operate in service of the public need to be accountable to the public. That can only happen if the public knows what's going on. The problem with your attitude is what criteria is used to define "potential adversaries" - just imagine if this was any other government in any other place or time in human history and the consequences of that attitude of yours would have on the citizens.
Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to convey. Just what is my attitude?

If Ahmadinejad or Kim Jong Un were doing it, would it be okay with you?
Doing what, releasing their state secrets? Makes no never mind to me. That is up to the North Koreans and the Iranians, although what the masses think would have little effect.
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Smidge204
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:26 pm

ebill3 wrote:Doing what, releasing their state secrets?
No, my obtuse friend... spying on their own country's citizens.

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klapauzius
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:29 pm

ebill3 wrote:Back to high school civics, Tom. We have a system of checks and balances, and while not perfect, it has served us well for these many years since the founding.

We do not need sniveling little weasels like Snowden and Manning with their holier than thou attitude and perceived higher moral standards to protect us. All they accomplish is to provide aid and comfort to our potential adversaries.

I rarely enter into discussions of this type, but those disgusting and deceitful banes of society have to be addressed.
I think it is not that straightforward. While I think that within a Democracy, we have to abide by the rules we all agreed on, I think calling people who follow their conscience " sniveling little weasels" or "disgusting and deceitful banes of society" sounds too much like other, well known totalitarian regimes (where we would have hailed acts like those of Manning and Snowden as heroic, no doubt).

What puzzles me most about these two cases is:

None of these (neither Manning nor Snowden) had high ranks, so how damaging can information be, that a simple private or contractor can access?

Is our sensitive national security really in the hands of 20somethings, which don't hold commissioned officer ranks (or equivalent)?
Seriously?
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Nubo
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:35 pm

kentuckyleaf wrote:I don't think Snowden is stopping a hitler, really, do you?
I think he is stopping a *future* Hitler.

A common sentiment seems to be "sure they're invading our privacy but they're the good guys and they're doing it to protect us".

The problem is, that once such programs are in place, they tend to outlive their originators. And so what happens when the next Hitler comes along and has these kind of tools and power at their disposal?

This is why we have checks and balances, and why we have (or used to have) limitations on the power of the Executive.

Congress over the years have abdicated their role as a check Presidential power. When is the last time Congress issued a Declaration of War? And how many WARS have we had since then?


Declaration of War with Great Britain, 1812
War of 1812: Senate Amendments
On June 17, 1812, Congress approved a resolution declaring war with Great Britain. The Senate approved the resolution by a vote of 19-13.

Declaration of War with Mexico, 1846
H.R. 145 Declaration of War with Mexico, 1846
On May 12, 1846, Congress approved a resolution declaring war with Mexico. The Senate approved the resolution by a vote of 40-2.

Declaration of War with Spain, 1898
H.R. 10086 Declaration of War with Spain, 1898
On April 25, 1898, Congress approved a resolution declaring war with Spain.

Declaration of War with Germany, 1917
S.J.Res. 1: Declaration of War With Germany, WWI
On April 6, 1917, Congress approved a resolution declaring war with Germany. The Senate approved the resolution by a vote of 82-6 on April 4, 1917.

Declaration of War with Austria-Hungary, 1917
H.J.Res.169: Declaration of War with Austria-Hungary, WWI
On December 7, 1917, Congress approved a resolution declaring war with Austria-Hungary. The Senate unanimously approved the resolution, 74-0.

Declaration of War with Japan, 1941
S.J.Res. 116: Declaration of War with Japan, WWII
On December 8, 1941, Congress approved a resolution declaring war with Japan. The Senate unanimously approved the resolution, 82-0.

Declaration of War with Germany, 1941
S.J.Res. 119: Declaration of War with Germany, WWII
On December 11, 1941, Congress approved a resolution declaring war with Germany. The Senate unanimously approved the resolution, 88-0.

Declaration of War with Italy, 1941
S.J.Res. 120: Declaration of War with Italy, WWII
On December 11, 1941, Congress approved a resolution declaring war with Italy. The Senate unanimously approved the resolution, 90-0.

Declaration of War with Bulgaria, 1942
H.R.Res. 319 Declaration of War with Bulgaria, WWII
On June 4, 1942, Congress approved a resolution declaring war with Bulgaria. The Senate unanimously approved the resolution, 73-0.

Declaration of War with Hungary, 1942
H.J.Res.320 Declaration of War with Hungary, WWII
On June 4, 1942, the Senate approved a resolution declaring war with Hungary. The Senate unanimously approved the resolution, 73-0.

Declaration of War with Rumania, 1942
H.J.Res. 321 Declaration of War with Rumania, WWII
On June 4, 1942, the Senate approved a resolution declaring war with Rumania. The Senate unanimously approved the resolution, 73-0.
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Smidge204
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:40 pm

Seemingly relevant, with respect to a surveillance society:

http://www.ted.com/talks/daniel_suarez_ ... robot.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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