AndyH
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Thu May 22, 2014 9:36 pm

klapauzius wrote:
AndyH wrote:
timhebb wrote:The terrorists clearly won.
Al-Qaeda and Osama were born from the Mujahideen - the Afghan fighters fighting the former USSR. We helped them, then left them to be slaughtered, then helped them, then pulled away again. The amazingly sad part of all of this is that 'we' created Osama bin Laden's hate.

See 'Charlie Wilson's War' and Operation Cyclone...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Wilson's_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone
I think you are confusing something here.

Al-Qaeda, bin laden and the like always hated both, the West and the Soviets. They took the West's help, because it was convenient (and needed) at the time, but the enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend. It was naive back then to not see this.
Feel free to cite a source if you care to - this I want to read.

OBL was one of the leaders, financiers, and liaison with the CIA during the Soviet era. He made clear the last straw for him was when his family built bases for American troops in Saudi - being jerked around during war was bad enough, but defiling the holy land was too much.
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AndyH
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Thu May 22, 2014 10:39 pm

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/5/22/l ... _face_lies
Ladar Levison, founder of the encrypted email provider Lavabit, details why he was forced to shut down his company last summer after the U.S. government attempted to seize Edward Snowden’s email information and much more. The FBI was targeting Snowden after he exposed the National Security Agency’s surveillance to the world, but in doing so effectively wanted access to the accounts of 400,000 other Lavabit customers.
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klapauzius
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Thu May 22, 2014 11:16 pm

AndyH wrote: Feel free to cite a source if you care to - this I want to read.

OBL was one of the leaders, financiers, and liaison with the CIA during the Soviet era. He made clear the last straw for him was when his family built bases for American troops in Saudi - being jerked around during war was bad enough, but defiling the holy land was too much.
Just read a history book on the middle east...
Pay special attention to the period of the crusades and the time after 1948. This should help understand how Bin-Laden & Co tick(ed).

For the mujaheddin, it is instructive to read about the attempts of the Brits to add Afghanistan to their empire in he 19th century.

To assume that all this hate for the West, or the ideological basis for today's average Islamist terrorist came from the botched 1980s Afghanistan campaign is a bit short sighted.

AndyH
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Fri May 23, 2014 1:42 am

klapauzius wrote:
AndyH wrote: Feel free to cite a source if you care to - this I want to read.

OBL was one of the leaders, financiers, and liaison with the CIA during the Soviet era. He made clear the last straw for him was when his family built bases for American troops in Saudi - being jerked around during war was bad enough, but defiling the holy land was too much.
Just read a history book on the middle east...
Pay special attention to the period of the crusades and the time after 1948. This should help understand how Bin-Laden & Co tick(ed).

For the mujaheddin, it is instructive to read about the attempts of the Brits to add Afghanistan to their empire in he 19th century.

To assume that all this hate for the West, or the ideological basis for today's average Islamist terrorist came from the botched 1980s Afghanistan campaign is a bit short sighted.
My point was about bin Laden, Klap, not the entire pathology of jihad everywhere. Yes, there was plenty going on in many places, but OBL wasn't around during the crusades or the 19th century and the CIA certainly wasn't. I was in uniform during the years of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan through the hunt for OBL and that's the period of history to which I'm referring.
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klapauzius
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Fri May 23, 2014 1:45 pm

AndyH wrote: My point was about bin Laden, Klap, not the entire pathology of jihad everywhere. Yes, there was plenty going on in many places, but OBL wasn't around during the crusades or the 19th century and the CIA certainly wasn't. I was in uniform during the years of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan through the hunt for OBL and that's the period of history to which I'm referring.
Yes, but that is a very American view...It is the long history that matters here, it certainly did for OBL, and while the ordinary Islamist terrorists might be as ignorant about the world and its history as everyone else, to their leaders, it certainly matters...

To give you just one example, the very recent mess in Iraq that America stepped into has its roots in an event that happened 1334 years ago. Its consequences still divide the middle east today and are a constant sources of mayhem and destruction (see Syria).

What people did or did not in the 80s does not matter to these folks at all...

AndyH
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Fri May 23, 2014 6:19 pm

klapauzius wrote:
AndyH wrote: My point was about bin Laden, Klap, not the entire pathology of jihad everywhere. Yes, there was plenty going on in many places, but OBL wasn't around during the crusades or the 19th century and the CIA certainly wasn't. I was in uniform during the years of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan through the hunt for OBL and that's the period of history to which I'm referring.
Yes, but that is a very American view...It is the long history that matters here, it certainly did for OBL, and while the ordinary Islamist terrorists might be as ignorant about the world and its history as everyone else, to their leaders, it certainly matters...

To give you just one example, the very recent mess in Iraq that America stepped into has its roots in an event that happened 1334 years ago. Its consequences still divide the middle east today and are a constant sources of mayhem and destruction (see Syria).

What people did or did not in the 80s does not matter to these folks at all...
Hmmm...While this is interesting at some level, I don't recall reading or hearing OBL mention 19 century colonialism as a factor when he started Al-Qaeda. Maybe you know something that he didn't?
In a 2004 BBC article entitled "Al-Qaeda's origins and links", the BBC wrote:

During the anti-Soviet jihad Bin Laden and his fighters received American and Saudi funding. Some analysts believe Bin Laden himself had security training from the CIA.[1]

Robin Cook, Foreign Secretary in the UK from 1997–2001, believed the CIA had provided arms to the Arab Mujahideen, including Osama bin Laden, writing, "Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan." His source for this is unclear.[2]

In conversation with former British Defence Secretary Michael Portillo, two-time Prime Minister of Pakistan Benazir Bhutto said Osama bin Laden was initially pro-American.[3] Prince Bandar bin Sultan of Saudi Arabia, has also stated that bin Laden once expressed appreciation for the United States' help in Afghanistan. On CNN's Larry King program he said:[4]

Bandar bin Sultan: This is ironic. In the mid-'80s, if you remember, we and the United - Saudi Arabia and the United States were supporting the Mujahideen to liberate Afghanistan from the Soviets. He [Osama bin Laden] came to thank me for my efforts to bring the Americans, our friends, to help us against the atheists, he said the communists. Isn't it ironic?

Larry King: How ironic. In other words, he came to thank you for helping bring America to help him.

Bandar bin Sultan: Right.

Former FBI translator and Whistleblower Sibel Edmonds, interviewed by Brad Friedman on the The Mike Malloy Show on June 2009 has stated: "I have information about things that our government has lied to us about. I know. For example, to say that since the fall of the Soviet Union we ceased all of our intimate relationship with Bin Laden and the Taliban - those things can be proven as lies, very easily, based on the information they classified in my case, because we did carry very intimate relationship with these people, and it involves Central Asia, all the way up to September 11."[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA%E2%80% ... ontroversy

http://www.history.com/topics/osama-bin-laden
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... id-it.html
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klapauzius
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Fri May 23, 2014 7:05 pm

AndyH wrote: Hmmm...While this is interesting at some level, I don't recall reading or hearing OBL mention 19 century colonialism as a factor when he started Al-Qaeda. Maybe you know something that he didn't?
You could ask our public servants at the NSA?

Although I am sure I know a lot of things that OBL didn't, I wasn't present at the founders meeting of Al-Qaeda, so I don't know what they discussed for their agenda. But the crusades (starting in 1095 AD) were mentioned frequently in their public announcements I think.

You are right, 19th century colonialism really wasn't or isn't the issue for Al-Qaeda. I did mention the British and their failed attempt to conquer Afghanistan as an illustration to the historically ingrained hatred and fierce resistance of the Afghans to any form of foreign meddling/occupation...historically this dates back to the times of Alexander the Great for this region of the world. Soviets, British, Americans, Macedonians...it seems to make little difference for these people.

AndyH
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Fri May 23, 2014 9:51 pm

klapauzius wrote:
AndyH wrote: Hmmm...While this is interesting at some level, I don't recall reading or hearing OBL mention 19 century colonialism as a factor when he started Al-Qaeda. Maybe you know something that he didn't?
You could ask our public servants at the NSA?

Although I am sure I know a lot of things that OBL didn't, I wasn't present at the founders meeting of Al-Qaeda, so I don't know what they discussed for their agenda. But the crusades (starting in 1095 AD) were mentioned frequently in their public announcements I think.

You are right, 19th century colonialism really wasn't or isn't the issue for Al-Qaeda. I did mention the British and their failed attempt to conquer Afghanistan as an illustration to the historically ingrained hatred and fierce resistance of the Afghans to any form of foreign meddling/occupation...historically this dates back to the times of Alexander the Great for this region of the world. Soviets, British, Americans, Macedonians...it seems to make little difference for these people.
You're talking to one. If I got into this in more detail I'd either have to join Snowden or Manning - as I have no desire to do either, you'll have to settle for links to open-source information.

Yes, I'm aware of the crusades, Templars, and Assassins. I'm also aware that the prophet Muhammad desired to be accepted by the Christians and Jews as 'People of the Book' the way that Islam accepts Judaism and Christianity. You probably know that didn't go very well.

Every person on the planet desires and in my opinion deserves to be left alone on their land. Colonialism is less than neighborly, and so are Hellfire missiles launched from UAVs. While I don't condone twisting any religion into a weapon as extremists of all stripes do, I don't blame them for resisting foreign meddling.
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klapauzius
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Sat May 24, 2014 9:21 am

AndyH wrote: You're talking to one. If I got into this in more detail I'd either have to join Snowden or Manning - as I have no desire to do either, you'll have to settle for links to open-source information.
Neither Russia nor a federal prison are nice places to be...
So, in light of recent events in Ukraine, how do you feel about Snowden sitting in Russia? Presumably he has spilled all the beans prior to these events, but getting in bed with the (now again openly) evil Russians, doesnt that tip the scales more to traitor?

AndyH
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Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Sat May 24, 2014 12:34 pm

klapauzius wrote:Neither Russia nor a federal prison are nice places to be...
So, in light of recent events in Ukraine, how do you feel about Snowden sitting in Russia? Presumably he has spilled all the beans prior to these events, but getting in bed with the (now again openly) evil Russians, doesnt that tip the scales more to traitor?
You appear to have assumed that he brought documents with him and then provided at least some of those to his current host country. He has stated repeatedly that he no longer has the documents - they've all been delivered to various media organizations - and therefore cannot give them to Taiwan or Russia. If he had the documents in his possession, that would make it easy to 'secure' the documents by arranging an 'unfortunate accident' that might include a note and a dive from a balcony. Also, if the documents were released to Russia one would expect a reaction - a loss of capability - and according to various interviews there's been no indication of an information release.

I've only read excerpts, but it's my understanding that today's events in the Crimea were brought to light by Wikileaks via the diplomatic cable releases. It appears that Putin's been working this 'pet project' since at least 2006.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2 ... rimea.html

http://cablegatesearch.net/cable.php?id ... 9&q=crimea
However, nearly all contended that pro-Russian forces in Crimea, acting with funding and direction from Moscow, have systematically attempted to increase communal tensions in Crimea in the two years since the Orange Revolution. They have done so by cynically fanning ethnic Russian chauvinism towards Crimean Tatars and ethnic Ukrainians, through manipulation of issues like the status of the Russian language, NATO, and an alleged Tatar threat to "Slavs," in a deliberate effort to destabilize Crimea, weaken Ukraine, and prevent Ukraine's movement west into institutions like NATO and the EU.
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