mbender
Posts: 824
Joined: Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:11 am
Delivery Date: 31 Aug 2014
Leaf Number: 309606
Location: The Great California Delta, and environs

Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:33 am

Not everything is so binary -- it's quite possible for him to be both, or at least some degree of each.

That being said, I wouldn't call him a hero, but his moral conviction is admirable. What wrong would you expose at the risk of losing everything (including or especially your citizenship)?

Finally, I dare say that this question is the same red herring that most of the press has been distracted with. That is, what he is (or isn't) and what we think of him aren't nearly as important as what he revealed and will continue to reveal. And it's easy to say that you already knew or assumed as much, but that's probably not technically true, unless one has a very dark imagination and high tolerance for outrage.
I think I just felt my paradigm shift.

2012 SL (One of the colors): 2-year lease, 2012+,
2015 S w/QC (A different color): 3-year lease, 2014+,
2017 SV (Same color as 2015 S): 3-year lease, 2017+, lower monthly than either above(!)

AndyH
Posts: 6388
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:43 pm
Location: San Antonio

Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:34 am

ebill3 wrote:Wait a minute. Does no one believe an oath should be honored?
Guess not, at least not the previous posters. Snowden and Manning - a pair of absolute traitors. Exile for both, they are scum.
Folks in that community have a number of oaths to balance. It's easy when things are going smoothly. It's very rough going when things start to conflict.

At the end of the day, one has to admire the level of integrity and strength of character it takes to stand up for what's right even when they're looking at solitary confinement, quality time with Marine guards, the inability to return to their country of birth, or a firing squad. It's easier to sacrifice oneself in battle than to face the world they've voluntarily walked into.

Heroes and true patriots, both of them.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
2018 Outlander PHEV
2015 smart Electric Drive (lease ended Feb, 2018)
OpenEVSE Plus DIY

lipower
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:56 am
Delivery Date: 16 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5852
Location: Antioch, IL

Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:10 am

Would have been nice if a few more of hitler's cronies questioned their "oath". You might think these two oaths are at extremes to each other but I'm sure hitler's started with innocent intent also.

That being said, I had no idea there were so many people that lived under rocks. I thought everyone knew that all digital communication was being monitored. It amazes me that some thought somehow there is special equipment that could record only terrorists communicating and filter out all the US citizens... Crazy.
• '12 Black LEAF SL Rec: 12/16/11
• GE Wattstation L2/30A
• 5.7kW Solar Array 28 Evergreen 205 w/Enphase M190
https://enlighten.enphaseenergy.com/pub ... /S7fx96349" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

apvbguy
Posts: 1403
Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:34 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Apr 2013
Location: Jacksonville FL.

Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:26 am

coolfilmaker wrote:
ebill3 wrote:Wait a minute. Does no one believe an oath should be honored?
Guess not, at least not the previous posters. Snowden and Manning - a pair of absolute traitors. Exile for both, they are scum.
What oath?
when you take a job with a security clearance you supposedly sign a contract stating you will not divulge secret info, government employees/military swear an oath while civilian contractors have the contract.
did he violate his "oath"? yes it appears that he did,
so does obuma and many other government employees are in violation every waking hour, and I didn't even touch upon the scroundrels in both the house and senate.

bottom line, despite the propaganda being put out by the government his revelations were IMHO not initially traitorous
WARNING This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm

derkraut
Posts: 1519
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:39 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 004248
Location: San Diego vicinity

Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:18 am

ebill3 wrote:Wait a minute. Does no one believe an oath should be honored?
Guess not, at least not the previous posters. Snowden and Manning - a pair of absolute traitors. Exile for both, they are scum.
+1 There you go; I guess folks nowadays don't know how to spell integrity. This guy should be executed for treason. :evil:
Derkraut
Color: Cayenne SLE, ETEC trim
reserved: 5/15/2010
Leaf del. 6/14/2011
New Traction battery installed on 7/28/2017:

camasleaf
Posts: 648
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:20 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2011
Location: Camas, WA

Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:27 am

coolfilmaker wrote:
ebill3 wrote:Wait a minute. Does no one believe an oath should be honored?
Guess not, at least not the previous posters. Snowden and Manning - a pair of absolute traitors. Exile for both, they are scum.
What oath?
I grew up under a dictatorship. One lesson I learned is never to confuse the people of a country with the government of that country. As the government becomes less and less "of the people for the people" we will likely see more of this.

That being said I would not have done what he has done, just because of that oath. But I would not have goten that job in the first place.

Hero or Traitor depends on the purpose of his actions. I that we do not know for sure.
2011 SLe 06/17/11 Over 89000 miles 61%SOH 13.8kWh
2018 Honda Clarity PHEV
2014 Model S P85 77888 miles 256mile range
5.7kW DC Solar System

User avatar
ebill3
Posts: 1400
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 1:23 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Sep 2011
Leaf Number: 7964
Location: Puyallup WA

Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:45 am

camasleaf wrote: Hero or Traitor depends on the purpose of his actions. I that we do not know for sure.
Wrong!

Depends on the action, and we know what that was - treason.
All electric - red LEAF, green Tesla S. No ICE.

klapauzius
Posts: 1658
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:19 pm
Delivery Date: 25 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 0197
Location: Seattle, Wa

Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:59 am

lipower wrote:Would have been nice if a few more of hitler's cronies questioned their "oath". You might think these two oaths are at extremes to each other but I'm sure hitler's started with innocent intent also.

That being said, I had no idea there were so many people that lived under rocks. I thought everyone knew that all digital communication was being monitored. It amazes me that some thought somehow there is special equipment that could record only terrorists communicating and filter out all the US citizens... Crazy.
+1

Nevertheless, I hope the democratic institutions in this country are still intact and therefore it is not ok to break the rules. Like Manning, he should be punished for breaking the rules we all agreed to live under.
However, in both cases, a slap on the wrist would be appropriate.
After all, we WANT people who question their orders once in a while.

User avatar
Nubo
Posts: 5554
Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
Delivery Date: 31 Oct 2014
Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:07 am

Does the oath mean "do what you're told",

or does it mean "...support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic"?

The lines are not always clear. Or maybe they were.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

camasleaf
Posts: 648
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:20 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2011
Location: Camas, WA

Re: Edward Snowden: Hero or Traitor?

Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:12 am

ebill3 wrote:
camasleaf wrote: Hero or Traitor depends on the purpose of his actions. I that we do not know for sure.
Wrong!

Depends on the action, and we know what that was - treason.
I have to disagree. Life showed me that we are rarely in full control of the result of our actions.

What do you call our soldiers when they kill another human being in the war: killers or heroes? It is the purpose of their actions that makes them heroes.

Back to this guy, I just read that he has with him few laptops with secret information. That really makes me question the purpose of his actions.
2011 SLe 06/17/11 Over 89000 miles 61%SOH 13.8kWh
2018 Honda Clarity PHEV
2014 Model S P85 77888 miles 256mile range
5.7kW DC Solar System

Return to “Politics & Other Controversial Topics”