New info for SDG&E installations: Now TWO experimental rates

Today I received word from SDG&E (Clean Transportation dept) that they have held talks with CPUC this week and recommended moving from the Three EV Project rate plans, with High, Medium, and Low Ratio, to just two plans.

Previously, participants would be assigned one of the three plans, with a ratio of 1:2(Standard EV-TOU), 1:4, or 1:6.

If you planned to charge only at Super Off-Peak, and didn't care about the extremely high Peak rates for your EVSE ($0.35+), then you wanted the High ratio to get discounted Super Off Peak power. I was one of those complaining that the Low Ratio would be expensive at Super Off Peak, and uncompelling compared to DR Baseline.

SDG&E is moving to drop the lowest ratio, the EV-TOU standard rate, and assign all participants one of the two higher ratios.

I view this as great news.

Additionally, the second (subtractive) meter and Experimental rate plan assignment are now optional for EV Project participants. If you would like to put your EV Project EVSE on your house meter (at DR rate or Solar TOU), you may.

GroundLoop said:

Today I received word from SDG&E (Clean Transportation dept) that they have held talks with CPUC this week and recommended moving from the Three EV Project rate plans, with High, Medium, and Low Ratio, to just two plans.

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+1 to the 'woot!' on this news. To the sdg&e folks reading this, thanks for listening to feedback

GroundLoop said:

Additionally, the second (subtractive) meter and Experimental rate plan assignment are now optional for EV Project participants. If you would like to put your EV Project EVSE on your house meter (at DR rate or Solar TOU), you may.

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Thanks for the info. Do you have a source document or link that you can point us to for reference?

Just for clarification, the second SDG&E meter is only required if you elect to be on one of the two experimental rate schedules? If you elect the standard DR or DR-SES (Solar) rate schedule you do not need a second meter because the entire house will be on the same rate schedule? I'm wondering how any useful charging information will be provided to the EV Project if the participants elect to charge their EV on the DR or DR-SES schedule that will be comingled with the rest of the home's electricity usage.

Are the resulting new tariffs and "total rates" on-line yet?

Are there still "high" monthly charges for the 2nd meter?

Is installing the 2nd (EV-charging) meter as a "subtractive"
meter allowed with any "whole house" tariff?

With PV, if the main meter basically breaks even, and then
the EV meter usage is subtracted, how much will they pay back
for the calculated "over-generation"?

Is that pay-back amount enough to pay for the EV usage kWh?

The EVProject gathers its usage information from the
EVSE's data connection.

It uses nothing from the SDG&E billing, I believe, so
two meters or one, EVProject does not care ... except
that it is more expensive to install a second meter.

I presume that if one wires for a second "subtractive" meter,
and then does not elect ot use it, that a simple meter-bypass
can be inserted into the unused meter-ring?

If so, wiring for two meters now gives one the option of
choosing to use different tariffs later on.

garygid said:

I presume that if one wires for a second "subtractive" meter,
and then does not elect ot use it, that a simple meter-bypass
can be inserted into the unused meter-ring?

If so, wiring for two meters now gives one the option of
choosing to use different tariffs later on.

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For them to proceed with installation of the 'free' second meter, it was my understanding one had to commit to using one of the 2 experimental rates (at least for the 12 months specified by the Project agreement). I'm sticking with DR and a single meter (as are I believe about 25% of the initial group of 16) since we have solar with capacity that can be applied to the car, and that would be awkward and possibly result in needless out of pocket expense under the two meter scheme. The elimination of the low spread rate alleviated some of the problem (the potentially big discrepancy between the likely AB920 overproduction reimbursement rate and the still relatively high super off peak rate). At some point it might benefit me to go to DR-SES, but only if our actual usage outstrips our production, and right now I'm hoping that won't be the case.

This outcome is pretty much exactly what I was hoping (and mildly arguing) for last summer...it comes as a surprise this late in the game, but a welcome one. I'm glad I'll be able to provide real charging habit data to the Project (as opposed to feeling like I needed to use L1 on my house-only account whenever I could to avoid wasting money, and having that data go uncollected).

wsbca said:

This outcome is pretty much exactly what I was hoping (and mildly arguing) for last summer...it comes as a surprise this late in the game, but a welcome one. I'm glad I'll be able to provide real charging habit data to the Project (as opposed to feeling like I needed to use L1 on my house-only account whenever I could to avoid wasting money, and having that data go uncollected).

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There is no question that this is good news for solar customers with exess kWh generation under an SDG&E net metering agreement. But it is a harder decision for me with solar generation at 90% of usage. If I don't opt for the second meter and the experimental rate, the lowest cost per kWh is $.17 under my existing DR-SES rate schedule. But I wouldn't need a second meter with this option, and the highest cost per kWh would be $.27. However the two experimental rates offer Super Off Peak rates of $.06 - $.07 per kWh which considerably lower if charging is only required from 12am to 5am. Even though I would like to avoid the second meter, I think it would be better to elect to have the experimental rates and if I needed to charge at the peak time period ($.37 per kWh under the EPEV-H schedule) I could use the L1 charger and it would cost $.27 per kWh instead. I would appreciate any thoughts on this.

Even your L1 charging is likely to be "collected" through the CARWINGS connection to "Nissan", then "shared" with the EVProject.

If one has a two-meter tariff, they might consider installing one 120v (duplex) socket on the ev-metered circuit for late-night L1 charging, and another regular-meter 120v socket for "daytime" charging, if the "house" rates were better (like when a PV system is supplying the e-fuel).

The 6¢ or 7¢ sounds too low for an SDG&E "Total Rate".

Is that perhaps only the discounted electricity charge, not including the "distribution, etc." charges?

Usually, 9¢ for the actual e-fuel, and an additional 4¢ for Tier 1 (lowest DR usage) gives something like 13¢ per kWh for the "total rate".

garygid said:

Even your L1 charging is likely to be "collected" through the CARWINGS connection to "Nissan", then "shared" with the EVProject.

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I would hope not, and have never heard such a thing asserted. The EV Project gets data only from program participants, and those who register to get an RFID card to use the public EV Project L2 chargers during the plan period.

They aren't (and have no right to) private data collected by Carwings. I'd be offended if they were provided access to individual charging data by Nissan/Carwings, without permission for disclosure. I'd have to read over the Carwings agreement carefully to see if they already require agreement to 3rd party (non aggregate) disclosure. Hope not.

Like some, my solar system doesn't cover 100% of my consumption, but my net is still within baseline.

I'm opting for the second power meter for a few reasons:

• The two high-ratio rates are actually pretty attractive at Super-Off-Peak -- better than DR. $0.06/kW is as good as it gets.
• SDG&E is footing the bill for a complicated second-meter installation and meter usage. This may prove useful later if the (eventual) EV-TOU plans require the customer to install a second meter.
• The payment for overage on Solar isn't all that much. If I end up making a net positive some year, it won't be a significant amount of cash anyway.
• In a small way, I'd like the second meter to be there, to confirm the annual totals reported by the Blink charger. Trust, but verify.
• Last, it seems possible that moderage home L2 use could push me above Baseline in the winter months, and possibly into 130%+. That would be expensive, and it's the main reason for accepting the EV Experimental rates.

Frank said:

There is no question that this is good news for solar customers with exess kWh generation under an SDG&E net metering agreement. But it is a harder decision for me with solar generation at 90% of usage. If I don't opt for the second meter and the experimental rate, the lowest cost per kWh is $.17 under my existing DR-SES rate schedule. But I wouldn't need a second meter with this option, and the highest cost per kWh would be $.27. However the two experimental rates offer Super Off Peak rates of $.06 - $.07 per kWh which considerably lower if charging is only required from 12am to 5am. Even though I would like to avoid the second meter, I think it would be better to elect to have the experimental rates and if I needed to charge at the peak time period ($.37 per kWh under the EPEV-H schedule) I could use the L1 charger and it would cost $.27 per kWh instead. I would appreciate any thoughts on this.

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Frank, it might depend on how many KwH make up that 10% of usage that you are paying for now, and more importantly whether that's before or after you add the car. Let's say it's before you add the car. If so, then I think you're going to be better off accepting the second meter and that great super-off-peak rate. You'll be able to shove a lot of LEAF miles into your car in those 5 hours a night, for dirt cheap (like 60 miles a day - 22K miles a year). You'll be driving at something like 2 cents a mile! It's my understanding that once the Project is over in 2 years, you can have them remove the second meter if you like (hopefully without much need for cosmetic repair). Or, move to any rate that is available at that time, whether it be a 2-meter based structure, or a whole house rate on a single meter.

Can you clarify what the implications of DR-SES are for you right now? That is to say, do you actually make 90% of the raw KwH that you consume, or do you eliminate 90% of your bill because you get credited at a higher rate during the day than you get charged at night, and you net produce during the day, but you actually only produce some lower percentage of your raw KwH?

The reason I'm sticking with one meter is because we sized our system in advance to (hopefully) accommodate both our home usage and the car, netting our actual KwH usage to zero. If in the future it turns out I miscalculated and I'm closer to your situation, one solution might be to go to DR-SES where I might be able to zero my bill $ while still net consuming some, but for now, the 2 meter experimental plan would drive me a bit crazy because if I used the L2 charger even at super off peak, I'd have to write checks for that power, then hope my AB920 reimbursement offset it. The risk of being arbitrarily assigned the low spread experimental rate is gone so that would have made it easier for me to go with the 2 meters and the experimental rate, but I don't think I need to.

garygid said:

The 6¢ or 7¢ sounds too low for an SDG&E "Total Rate".

Is that perhaps only the discounted electricity charge, not including the "distribution, etc." charges?

Usually, 9¢ for the actual e-fuel, and an additional 4¢ for Tier 1 (lowest DR usage) gives something like 13¢ per kWh for the "total rate".

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I believe this IS the total rate Gary. I have a PDF file that a downloaded from the SDG&E website that is a letter from SDG&E to the CPUC to establish the experimentla rates. The $.06 and $.07 rates are listed in the Total Rate column. For example, the EPEV-H Super Peak rate has the following components:

$.02126 (UDC) + $.03986 (EEEC) + $.00515 (DWR-BC) = $.06627 (Total Rate)

Am I missing something?

I think, not sure because it is a LOT to wade through, that the CARWINGS "agreement" has you give away everything but the family jewels.

When de-personalized, I suspect they can use any collected data for anything.

Use of "all" public meters will generally be collected and shared as well. The EVSE might not know who is charging, and the LEAF might not know exactly which EVSE it is using, but the data (together with time stamps) will reveal both.

Of course the GPS data gathered as you drive will show all of those "naughty" stops at the doughnut shop, bank robberies, etc. :lol:

Gary,
During my EVSE installation, I asked about the 120v suggestion you made above. I figured I might want to charge at 120v sometimes, perhaps in the driveway, and would like to get the lower rate for that.

Here's the difficulty: Not saying it couldn't be done, but the installation as currently designed, has a separate 50amp breaker in an enclosure next to the second meter that feeds the EVSE. There is currently no provision in the design or installation (or physical place) to install a 20amp breaker that would feed a 120v receptacle from the 2nd meter.

We'll have to think about how that could be done....

Randy

GroundLoop said:

Last, it seems possible that moderage home L2 use could push me above Baseline in the winter months, and possibly into 130%+. That would be expensive, and it's the main reason for accepting the EV Experimental rates.

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Very interesting point - I hadn't thought of that. We were always below baseline pre-PV, and we have been making a lot of excess, but with a really bad winter solar month _and_ the car...hmmm. Our worst case consumption is probably on the order of 600 KwH (half house, half car), and worst case generation with sustained bad weather could be...well, it could be zero, but let's say 200KwH. I think 400 might still be in Tier 2, but probably barely. And I think what you're saying is on DR, even though you only true up once a year, in a given monthly meter reading period the credit (or lack thereof) calculation is vulnerable to the regular tiers and a deficit could take a bigger than expected bite. I'll need to monitor that pretty closely. I think we're more likely to use 500 and/or make 250 in, say, December so hopefully we'll be OK but geez- it just goes to show you there's more complexity than meets the eye. I would imagine it gets even trickier with DR-SES.

wsbca said:

Can you clarify what the implications of DR-SES are for you right now? That is to say, do you actually make 90% of the raw KwH that you consume, or do you eliminate 90% of your bill because you get credited at a higher rate during the day than you get charged at night, and you net produce during the day, but you actually only produce some lower percentage of your raw KwH?

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The 90% is a comparison of kWhs generated compared to kWhs consumed. It isn't 90% of dollars. That is one reason that I switched to DR-SES this year because I estimated that I could reduce or possibly eliminate my $300 per year SDG&E bill. The $300 bill was my average annual bill while on the standard DR tiered rate schedule and that represents the 10% of electricity that I purchase from SDG&E in a year. I am presently four months into the 12 month net metering period and on DR-SES my cummulative bill is $63. I have an EcoDog FIDO energy monitoring system and they have a cool comparison feature that with the click of a button I can see what my cummulative bill would be on any of the other SDG&E residential rate schedules. If I was on the standard DR schedule, my cummulative bill would be $137 right now.

Frank,
It does sound like those are the basic components of Total Rate.

Are there on-line links to these total-rate files?

I an not in EVProject, but in SDG&E. I presume these two "experimental" rates will not be available to me, right?

I looked at the normal SDG&E total rates perhaps 4 months ago and it was not encouraging, and there were around $8 or so per month extra charge for the 2nd meter.

Is that meter-charge still there?

garygid said:

Use of "all" public meters will generally be collected and shared as well. The EVSE might not know who is charging, and the LEAF might not know exactly which EVSE it is using, but the data (together with time stamps) will reveal both.

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Use of the public L2 chargers provided by ECOtality will require the use of an RFID card.

So even if you are not an EV Project participant at home, if you want to use the free chargers that ARE part of the project, you have to get an RFID card for tracking.

Other open-access L2 chargers (not ECOtality) can do whatever they want. I don't know if Chargepoint allows anonymous charging, but it doesn't look like it.