jkirkebo
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Re: L3 / CHAdeMO quick charge AWOL ?

Wed Sep 21, 2011 8:15 pm

SanDust wrote:
JPWhite wrote:They also would like to see the standard adopted by the US, like the rest of the world has already.
I guess this is true if by rest of the world you mean Japan. Europe has most definitely not signed on to CHAdeMO. In fact BMW may be the most active manufacturer in the development of the the SAE standard, which, BTW, is designed to deal with the various European electrical systems. The car manufacturers don't want two plugs. They want one plug which will work with anything from 120V to 600V. The powerline and V2G capabilities are also a bonus as is the 4x faster charge times and not having to rely on a ground fault interrupt.
Most european car makers won't go with the SAE solution as that does not support 3-phase charging. Much easier to put one Mennekes and one CHAdeMO port on the cars.

CHAdeMO is definately the defacto standard here in Norway at least, some 30 stations should be operational by year end and at least twice that next year. Currently around 10-15 are finished.

SanDust
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Re: L3 / CHAdeMO quick charge AWOL ?

Wed Sep 21, 2011 11:29 pm

jkirkebo wrote:Most european car makers won't go with the SAE solution as that does not support 3-phase charging. Much easier to put one Mennekes and one CHAdeMO port on the cars.
You're confusing J1772 AC and DC charging. J1772 DC charging would work fine as a single phase AC charger and as a DC charger. In fact it would work exactly like a Leaf, which has a single phase AC charger and a DC charger (CHAdeMO), except you'd be getting the same performance from one plug rather than two.

Manufacturers don't want two plugs they want one. With the SAE J1772 they could have one plug for all cars sold in Europe, NA, and Japan. (Mennekes is probably dead and China is a different story altogether). Under your scenario they'll need at least three plugs and probably four -- J1772, Mennekes, CHAdeMo and J1772 DC, with a variety of different charging pairs -- J1772 and CHAdeMo for Japan, Mennekes and CHAdeMo for Europe, Mennekes and J1772 DC for Europe, J1772 and CHAdeMO for NA, or J1772 DC for NA.

That's just way too messy.

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waidy
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Re: L3 / CHAdeMO quick charge AWOL ?

Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:42 am

I wonder, if the LEAF could use a simply CHAdeMo<->J1772 connector to use the SAE L3 charger.
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garygid
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Re: L3 / CHAdeMO quick charge AWOL ?

Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:58 am

The major part of the DC-Charging problem is not really the connector, but the substantially different (incompatible) control and communication method and messages.

That makes the conversion FAR MORE than just a connector change.

Further, communication over active, noisy power lines is rarely a "best" solution, unless there is no other choice.

Since it APPEARS that no NA car manufacturer is planning to use DC charging in the near future, and that NO "mass" testing of the "standard" is being done, one might think that the suggested standard is just proposed to disrupt the progress of foreign EV-makers.
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JPWhite
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Re: L3 / CHAdeMO quick charge AWOL ?

Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:21 am

garygid wrote:
Since it APPEARS that no NA car manufacturer is planning to use DC charging in the near future, and that NO "mass" testing of the "standard" is being done, one might think that the suggested standard is just proposed to disrupt the progress of foreign EV-makers.
Couple that with a glacial paced UL certification of the Blink fast chargers, and the conspiracy theorist voice gains volume. :-(

Unfortunately I have to agree with you. Folks are putting a spanner in the works.
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SanDust
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Re: L3 / CHAdeMO quick charge AWOL ?

Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:58 pm

garygid wrote:Since it APPEARS that no NA car manufacturer is planning to use DC charging in the near future, and that NO "mass" testing of the "standard" is being done, one might think that the suggested standard is just proposed to disrupt the progress of foreign EV-makers.
Yes, but you could also say that since the only two companies pushing DC charging are also pushing the standard they have a proprietary interest in that this is a ploy to disrupt the introduction of EVs by other competitors. One piece of evidence substantiating this would be the fact that Nissan is championing fast charging because "customers need it" but at the same time limiting Level II charging to 3.3 kW because "it makes sense" and "customers don't need faster charging". Logically these two positions can't be reconciled.

Once there is a standard, and the manufacturers are comfortable that batteries will tolerate fast charging, we'll see fast chargers come as standard equipment and the equipment companies able to manufacturer the charging equipment at lower prices. Perhaps by then we'll even see a business model for DC charging that makes sense.

jkirkebo
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Re: L3 / CHAdeMO quick charge AWOL ?

Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:11 am

SanDust wrote:
jkirkebo wrote:Most european car makers won't go with the SAE solution as that does not support 3-phase charging. Much easier to put one Mennekes and one CHAdeMO port on the cars.
You're confusing J1772 AC and DC charging. J1772 DC charging would work fine as a single phase AC charger and as a DC charger. In fact it would work exactly like a Leaf, which has a single phase AC charger and a DC charger (CHAdeMO), except you'd be getting the same performance from one plug rather than two.

Manufacturers don't want two plugs they want one. With the SAE J1772 they could have one plug for all cars sold in Europe, NA, and Japan. (Mennekes is probably dead and China is a different story altogether). Under your scenario they'll need at least three plugs and probably four -- J1772, Mennekes, CHAdeMo and J1772 DC, with a variety of different charging pairs -- J1772 and CHAdeMo for Japan, Mennekes and CHAdeMo for Europe, Mennekes and J1772 DC for Europe, J1772 and CHAdeMO for NA, or J1772 DC for NA.

That's just way too messy.
I'm not confusing anything. European makers want 3-phase AC charging, so J1772 is out, DC combo version or not. Mennekes does the trick (for both 3-phase and 1-phase), and you do not need a J1772 port on the car since no-one deploys public J1772 EVSEs in Europe. Everything deployed so far (for AC charging) is either a simple household socket or a Mennekes EVSE.

The options for fast charging is a separate CHAdeMO port or the DC extensions to the Mennekes port. Since lots of CHAdeMO chargers are being installed NOW, my guess is that CHAdeMO will be the winner, at least short term.

Herm
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Re: L3 / CHAdeMO quick charge AWOL ?

Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:55 am

What L3 charger connector are the Project Better Place cars using in Europe, Australia and Israel using?.. Renault is part of the Nissan family so I would think Chademo. Are they also using a j1772 connector for L1 and L2?

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davewill
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Re: L3 / CHAdeMO quick charge AWOL ?

Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:04 am

SanDust wrote:... One piece of evidence substantiating this would be the fact that Nissan is championing fast charging because "customers need it" but at the same time limiting Level II charging to 3.3 kW because "it makes sense" and "customers don't need faster charging". Logically these two positions can't be reconciled. ...
Actually, the two are very complementary. If there's plenty of fast charging around, and L2 is used mainly at home overnight, then you don't need faster L2.

Of course they are wrong. Faster L2 (especially since it's not really a cost thing) would be very beneficial even at home, and in an environment where it appears that public L2 is going priced by the hour...
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TEG
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Re: L3 / CHAdeMO quick charge AWOL ?

Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:57 am

Herm wrote:What L3 charger connector are the Project Better Place cars using in Europe, Australia and Israel using?.. Renault is part of the Nissan family so I would think Chademo. Are they also using a j1772 connector for L1 and L2?
I think Better Place may be going a proprietary route. I think they may want direct control over billing for the electricity.

Image

Also, they seem to be the champions of battery pack swap stations more than quick charging.
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/37982/page1/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/37982/page2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
...Better Place says it plans to open 40 swap stations in Israel by the end of the year, and a total of 55 by the first quarter of next year. The company says that will be enough to allow people to drive anywhere in the country. It has also set up about 1,000 charging stations.

Better Place recently announced the opening of its first swap station in Denmark, the next country to get a network. It is also building a network of stations in Australia, starting in Canberra at the end of the this year, and then Melbourne, Sydney, and Brisbane.

The company has backed off one of its original goals, which was to create an extensive network of public charging stations that would let drivers plug in almost anywhere they parked. After months of testing, the company said ubiquitous chargers aren't needed...
"Position piece" justifying why they want to use battery swap/switch instead of fast charge:
http://blog.betterplace.com/2010/03/qui ... ry-switch/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Related:
http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/28/autos/s ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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