GaleHawkins
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Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: For SALE 2016 Leaf SV with 9 Bars and 30K Miles, Qualify for New 30Kwh Battery $14900

Sat Nov 09, 2019 2:41 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:05 pm
I was interested in the one I bought because it was showing 9/12 bars so I could learn more about the reality of the 30 wKh battery degradation issue and how the software "fix" worked its magic. I do not question the validity of the software patch any longer based on research on the degradation issue. If it is a true degradation it will not give the bars back as I understand it.

You don't quite understand. The lost bars will return after the update, if only because they usually seem to reboot the battery management computer when they do the update. Then the regained capacity bars may or may not stay. It's essentially a crapshoot unless you either do a range test for about 20 miles, or use Sagebrush's charge capacity test, before buying, to determine if the battery is degraded or not.
That's what I'm trying to understand, the science behind the software update before I have it done.

LeftieBiker
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Re: For SALE 2016 Leaf SV with 9 Bars and 30K Miles, Qualify for New 30Kwh Battery $14900

Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:03 pm

That's what I'm trying to understand, the science behind the software update before I have it done.

We don't have access to the details of how the update works. All that we know is this:

* The update resets the BMS to read 12 bars.

* As the BMS relearns the actual capacity, the 12 bars may remain, or one or more of them may once again be lost over the next few weeks and months.

* Some people have regained and retained 12 bars.

* Some people have regained all lost bars and then have re-lost one or more, but not all of them.

* Some people have seen no actual improvement in capacity or range, just the usual effects of a BMS reset.


In my used Leaf buying guide I note that the only 30kwh Leafs that you can count on to have 12 bars of actual capacity are the ones that show 12 bars with no update.* I'm going to add here that I believe that a 30kwh Leaf showing three or more lost bars is very likely NOT a 12 bar car with a software error. An 11 bar 30kwh Leaf may (or may not) just have faulty BMS programming. Nissan claims that the 30kwh packs degrade at the same rate as the 24kwh 2015 "Lizard" packs, but the reality seems to be that degradation is a mixed bag with these packs, with some of them degrading fairly rapidly and some retaining capacity well. The latter seem to mainly in cooler climates. I have dubbed them "Lettuce Packs" because they seem to wilt (lose bars) in the heat and stay "fresh" in cool temps.


* You can also determine actual capacity by doing a range test that involves driving the car X miles and then extrapolating to a full charge to Very Low Battery Warning or empty drive, or by doing a full charge from near empty and measuring the number of kilowatt hours added.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GaleHawkins
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: For SALE 2016 Leaf SV with 9 Bars and 30K Miles, Qualify for New 30Kwh Battery $14900

Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:33 pm

I found these articles to be helpful.

https://insideevs.com/news/338528/updat ... ng-issues/


https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=530079#p530079
This dealer communication from Nissan helped me grasp this issue was not a battery problem but a software issue. When the software tells the motor it is out of juice and it decreases output (Turtle Mode) even if the battery contains another 20 miles of range.

Of course if one actually 10 cells that are dead then that is more than a software issue clearly.

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1 ... rs-study
This story about degradation not being real but a software issue.

I think of a jet on an international flight that has a math error of .001 degree. 5 minutes after take off the math error is not really noticeable by someone standing on the ground. A thousand miles later the plane be greatly off the planned path and much more even after 5 thousand miles.

While my 2016 Leaf SL reports the expected range is 70 miles (as was the case today) I bet three years ago when it was new that it was reporting 107 miles of range or the leasers would have complained. History indicated they on average charged ever 30 miles of usage and from wear on the L1 OEM charger it may not have had a L2 at home. One DC fast charge is reported and that could have been new at the dealers even.

After a few weeks of several Turtle to 100% charges the remaining range miles counter and the odometer are about one for one but at first it might drop by 10 miles after only traveling the first 2 miles. Leaf Spy Pro now reports all blue bars when fully charged and cell voltage around 4.05 volts. Once the range after a full charge after a deep discharge reported 95 miles but in 60-70 miles would be down to reported Gids of 7 or 8. Was the battery about out of juice or just thinking it was about out of juice?

At this point I expect the software fix may work but if not I have almost 5 years or 77K miles which ever comes first to trigger a battery repair or replacement. All is golden in the meantime in a functional sense. We have a solid 60-70 actual mile range and the required range is under 30 miles before we get back to the charger at home.

Time will tell.

LeftieBiker
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Re: For SALE 2016 Leaf SV with 9 Bars and 30K Miles, Qualify for New 30Kwh Battery $14900

Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:23 pm

I'm familiar with Nissan's position on this, which is the same position relayed by Lieber. The idea that this is "just a software issue" hasn't born out in many cases. It appears to me that Nissan discovered that some of the 30kwh packs did indeed have a BMS software issue, and they are using this to cover up what appears to be a BIG quality control issue (and possibly a design issue as well) in the 30wkh packs with the BMS "update." As I wrote in the previous post, it's a crapshoot: the update likely will restore all three of the missing bars in that car, and they may stay restored. More likely, IMO, they will not. The "update" seems to do two things: make the BMS more um, optimistic about remaining capacity, and it tells the BMS to use more of the capacity available at lower voltages than before - something that is not necessarily a good idea for long battery life. Keep in mind that Nissan's goal is simply to stop replacing a lot of 30kwh packs. It is not to ensure a long and happy life for the packs in use, just for them to retain at least nine capacity bars for 8 years or 100,000 miles when at all possible.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GaleHawkins
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: For SALE 2016 Leaf SV with 9 Bars and 30K Miles, Qualify for New 30Kwh Battery $14900

Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:47 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 7:23 pm
I'm familiar with Nissan's position on this, which is the same position relayed by Lieber. The idea that this is "just a software issue" hasn't born out in many cases. It appears to me that Nissan discovered that some of the 30kwh packs did indeed have a BMS software issue, and they are using this to cover up what appears to be a BIG quality control issue (and possibly a design issue as well) in the 30wkh packs with the BMS "update." As I wrote in the previous post, it's a crapshoot: the update likely will restore all three of the missing bars in that car, and they may stay restored. More likely, IMO, they will not. The "update" seems to do two things: make the BMS more um, optimistic about remaining capacity, and it tells the BMS to use more of the capacity available at lower voltages than before - something that is not necessarily a good idea for long battery life. Keep in mind that Nissan's goal is simply to stop replacing a lot of 30kwh packs. It is not to ensure a long and happy life for the packs in use, just for them to retain at least nine capacity bars for 8 years or 100,000 miles when at all possible.
At this point I do not know the facts of this matter but will in time because I put my money on the table. Your view may turn out to be valid as the data is gathered. This 2016 Leaf SL is my sixth Nissan over the last 46 years years but the first without a gas tank and is the most expensive vehicle I have ever purchased and is the nicest one as well.

Some honeymoons last a life time. I have never owned a Nissan that I did not wear out at around 200K miles. My first one was a 1973 Datsun 1200 couple that I bought new for $2150. We ran the 1986.5 Nissan Hardbody until 2015 and still only had 140K miles on it and it still is a good truck running around town today. I am going to keep my eye on their 2021 EV with specs more like the Telsa Model 3. This area is wrapped up in Nissan cars and trucks being only 100+ miles from the factory in the Nashville region.

LeftieBiker
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Re: For SALE 2016 Leaf SV with 9 Bars and 30K Miles, Qualify for New 30Kwh Battery $14900

Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:07 pm

Just keep in mind that one possible outcome is a 30kwh Leaf with 24kwh range, and a battery that clings to 9 or 10 bars for years. As long as you are ok with that, I don't think that you made a mistake.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GaleHawkins
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: For SALE 2016 Leaf SV with 9 Bars and 30K Miles, Qualify for New 30Kwh Battery $14900

Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:35 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 8:07 pm
Just keep in mind that one possible outcome is a 30kwh Leaf with 24kwh range, and a battery that clings to 9 or 10 bars for years. As long as you are ok with that, I don't think that you made a mistake.

Of the two 2016 Leaf SL's with the same miles and options with the same asking prices I selected the one with 9/12 bars instead of the one with 12/12 bars. It was my intent to buy a 30 kWh Leaf with the "degradation" issue so I can teach myself if the degradation is factual or fiction or a combo of the two. Nissan has me covered battery wise for nearly 5 years going forward if I do not add more than 77K miles to the car. In time I want to get 3 more EV's for the family and put to use some of my Navy A and B electronic schooling at Millington Naval Air station as an old man. :)

While mis and dis information about EV's is all over the web if one can separate facts from fiction some good deals may be out there. You know my position on the fear of the unknown. :)

LeftieBiker
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Re: For SALE 2016 Leaf SV with 9 Bars and 30K Miles, Qualify for New 30Kwh Battery $14900

Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:49 pm

Of the two 2016 Leaf SL's with the same miles and options with the same asking prices I selected the one with 9/12 bars instead of the one with 12/12 bars.

If that other one had had the update applied then it's a crapshoot either way. If, however, it did not, then it's exactly the sort of 30kwh Leaf I tell people to buy...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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jlv
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Re: For SALE 2016 Leaf SV with 9 Bars and 30K Miles, Qualify for New 30Kwh Battery $14000

Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:06 am

The last few messages are off-topic of the LEAF for sale here.
LEAF '13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17, sold 11/18) 34K mi, AHr 58, SOH 87%
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85K 100% BEV miles since '14
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LeftieBiker
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Re: For SALE 2016 Leaf SV with 9 Bars and 30K Miles, Qualify for New 30Kwh Battery $14000

Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:27 pm

I'd say that it's more tangential than off-topic. The 30kwh Leaf is a more complicated proposition to buy or sell, for the above reason.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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