rainnw
Posts: 283
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:26 am
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: Seattle

Re: Deceptively fast?

Sat Jun 25, 2011 1:03 am

Its hard to get someone to race you, given the fact there is nothing to rev.

The 0-30 and 0-40 time is quite impressive in this car. Yes, I have actually had people attempt to race me (looking at me, reving, and gunning it)...and get completely bent out of shape when they catch up to me after i hit the speed limit (35-40).
Ordered 11/24/2010 (November)
Delivered: 5/28/2011
Red SL-e, ECO package, cargo, splashguards
Commute: 75 miles round trip (60 miles highway, 15 side roads)
miles: 45,000 miles
Charge daily to 100%, lost 1st bar at 43k

http://www.chargesticker.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Electric4Me
Posts: 533
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:25 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 772
Location: Union City, CA

Re: Deceptively fast?

Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:15 am

aqn wrote:And furthermore, the LEAF cranks out 200+ ft-lbs at zero RPM.
Although the Leaf's motor may be capable of this, I'm not sure it ever really does produce this torque right at zero. The power meter (and the seat of the pants meter) indicates that the software ramps up the power over a second or two. This doesn't change with traction control off either.
Bill Davis
2011 Cayenne Red SL
2014 Toyota RAV4 EV
6.4 kW PV system
Fun in the Leaf! (video)

smkettner
Posts: 7501
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Deceptively fast?

Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:48 am

Electric4Me wrote:
aqn wrote:And furthermore, the LEAF cranks out 200+ ft-lbs at zero RPM.
Although the Leaf's motor may be capable of this, I'm not sure it ever really does produce this torque right at zero. The power meter (and the seat of the pants meter) indicates that the software ramps up the power over a second or two. This doesn't change with traction control off either.
X2 for the seat of the pants meter
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

smkettner
Posts: 7501
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Deceptively fast?

Sat Jun 25, 2011 9:54 am

TEG wrote:Keep in mind that with a fixed gear ratio the Leaf acts like it is always stuck in "4th" gear.
I feel the opposite. With about 8:1 drive ratio the motor seems ready to rip at any modest speed.
At 30 mph the motor should already be at 3300 rpm. That is not 4th.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

User avatar
TonyWilliams
Posts: 10091
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2011 1:48 am
Location: San Diego
Contact: Website

Re: Deceptively fast?

Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:08 am

smkettner wrote:
TEG wrote:Keep in mind that with a fixed gear ratio the Leaf acts like it is always stuck in "4th" gear.
I feel the opposite. With about 8:1 drive ratio the motor seems ready to rip at any modest speed.
At 30 mph the motor should already be at 3300 rpm. That is not 4th.

Well, based on 10,390 RPM max, and use our trusty horsepower formula, HP = Torque x RPM / 5252, we find that 3300 RPM is way down on the HP formula curve.

But, 207 foot pounds of torque obviously isn't available at 10,390 RPM, since that would be over 400 horsepower.
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
ttweed
Posts: 1090
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:31 am
Delivery Date: 01 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 1317
Location: La Jolla, CA
Contact: Website

Re: Deceptively fast?

Sat Jun 25, 2011 10:23 am

aqn wrote:And finally, this thread's title should probably read "Deceptively quick?" not "Deceptively fast?".
I agree with this. In fact, I think the title should be "Casually quick," since the hallmark of the Leaf's performance for me is how easily and quickly it comes off the line from a standing start without any muss or fuss, needing no coordinated, complex or machinery-rending inputs from the driver. It is this effortless launch that is startling, but the impression of speed is all over at 25-30 mph for me. From there on, the performance seems mundane or at least fairly ordinary--nothing to compare with some of the truly fast cars I have driven, which can continue to accelerate strongly to 100mph and beyond hard enough to press your eyeballs back in your skull and derange the passing scenery into a blur. It can be a stealthy little beast from stoplight to stoplight in the city, even for an unskilled driver, but beyond the first block, it's just another econobox, albeit a very quiet one...

By the time a Leaf gets to 60mph, a 911 GT2RS is going 120mph. That is fast...
TT
Tom Tweed
La Jolla, CA
Plowshare Media
2011 SLe #1317 del. 4/1/11
1st bar lost at 31,953 miles
2nd bar lost at 38,685 miles
3rd bar lost at 50,711 miles
4th bar lost at 59,758 miles after 64 months
Battery replaced at 61,307 miles.

User avatar
TomT
Posts: 10650
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:09 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000360
Location: California, now Georgia
Contact: Website

Re: Deceptively fast?

Sat Jun 25, 2011 11:12 am

Yep, it definitely ramps. I'm sure this was done to lessen the stress on the drive line and, perhaps, to also lessen the chance for people to get themselves in trouble, by somewhat replicating the take off curve of an ICE car...
Electric4Me wrote:
aqn wrote:And furthermore, the LEAF cranks out 200+ ft-lbs at zero RPM.
Although the Leaf's motor may be capable of this, I'm not sure it ever really does produce this torque right at zero. The power meter (and the seat of the pants meter) indicates that the software ramps up the power over a second or two. This doesn't change with traction control off either.
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
2019 Tesla Model 3; LR, RWD, FSD, 19" Sport Wheels, silver/black; built 3/17/19, delivered 3/29/19.

User avatar
aqn
Gold Member
Posts: 820
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:59 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 1333
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Deceptively fast?

Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:21 pm

TEG wrote:Keep in mind that with a fixed gear ratio the Leaf acts like it is always stuck in "4th" gear.
An overall ratio of 7.9 is about second gear in some, and probably many, ICE cars. Cases in point: a 1997 VW GTI has final drive ratio of 3.67 and second gear ratio of 1.94 (7.1 overall), a 2006 VW GTI has final drive ratio of 3.94 and second gear ratio of 2.09 (8.2 overall).
Anna Nguyen

User avatar
aqn
Gold Member
Posts: 820
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:59 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 1333
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Deceptively fast?

Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:23 pm

smkettner wrote:I feel the opposite. With about 8:1 drive ratio the motor seems ready to rip at any modest speed.
At 30 mph the motor should already be at 3300 rpm. That is not 4th.
TonyWilliams wrote:Well, based on 10,700 RPM max (I think that's right), and use our trusty horsepower formula, HP = Torque x RPM / 5252, we find that 3300 RPM is way down on the HP formula curve.
If this document is to be believed, the LEAF's motor makes ts max torque of 206 ft-lbs from 0-2730 rpm and max power of 107 bhp from 2730-9800 rpm. That means the motor puts out max torque between 0 and approximately 24 mph (assuming top speed of 94 mph and max engine RPM of 10,390).

I still say that the LEAF feels quick off the line because it is quick off the line. I went looking for dyno graphs, but could not find any that show readings below 2000 or 2500 rpm, but many "performance cars" shows around the same torque at 2000+ rpm:
Cayman S: 200 ft-lbs @ 2500
Porsche Twin Turbo: 150 ft-lbs @ 1750 rpm,
Porsche 911 Turbo Cabriolet: 120 ft-lbs @ 1000 rpm
2009 Nissan GT-R: 250 ft-lbs @ 2000 rpm
2008 Porsche 911 Turbo: 340 ft-lbs @ 2500 rpm
2007 Porsche GT4 RS: 175 ft-lbs @ 2250 rpm
Porsche Carrea 3.2: 170 ft-lbs @ 2250 rpm
Anna Nguyen

User avatar
ttweed
Posts: 1090
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:31 am
Delivery Date: 01 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 1317
Location: La Jolla, CA
Contact: Website

Re: Deceptively fast?

Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:11 am

aqn wrote:If this document is to be believed, the LEAF's motor makes ts max torque of 206 ft-lbs from 0-2730 rpm and max power of 107 bhp from 2730-9800 rpm. That means the motor puts out max torque between 0 and approximately 24 mph (assuming top speed of 94 mph and max engine RPM of 10,390).
IMHO, that document shows the raw specs of the motor before Nissan applies their ECU, BMS, and "drive by wire" throttle controls to the motor's output. There is no way that they would allow the engine to apply full power instantly to the wheels from a standing start--that would be detrimental to the battery pack as well as the drivetrain, and the tires do not have sufficient grip to apply it to the ground anyway. I concur with the others who believe the Leaf's software moderates and "ramps up" a full power application much slower than the motor's full capability.
I still say that the LEAF feels quick off the line because it is quick off the line. I went looking for dyno graphs, but could not find any that show readings below 2000 or 2500 rpm, but many "performance cars" shows around the same torque at 2000+ rpm:
[snipped examples]
Yes, it is true that ICE engines do not develop max torque at low RPMs. This does NOT mean that they cannot launch quickly off the line. The clutch and gearing and driver skill can be combined to make sure that the car is never out of the meaty part of the powerband, even from a dead stop. The most important aspect in accelerating a vehicle is grip, and the Leaf is sorely lacking in this part of the equation, regardless of how much torque it may have available. The tires are the single most important factor in acceleration performance (and braking and cornering as well). If the coefficient of friction of the tire contact patch is not sufficient to transfer the power to the ground, it doesn't matter how much power is applied. With the wider, softer compound tires that are standard equipment on a modern sports car, and a skilled driver (or modern launch control software), any of the performance vehicles you cite will absolutely smoke a Leaf off the line, no matter how "quick" it may feel. The stopwatch doesn't lie.
Despite the anemic 175 ft-lbs @ 2250rpm, a new GT3 RS (there is no 911 GT4 yet, BTW) will do 0-60mph in 3.5 seconds (without launch control). There is no way the Leaf could stay with it, even to 20-30 mph.

TT
Tom Tweed
La Jolla, CA
Plowshare Media
2011 SLe #1317 del. 4/1/11
1st bar lost at 31,953 miles
2nd bar lost at 38,685 miles
3rd bar lost at 50,711 miles
4th bar lost at 59,758 miles after 64 months
Battery replaced at 61,307 miles.

Return to “News & Main LEAF Discussion”