knightmb
Posts: 917
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:41 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2021
Leaf Number: 306291
Location: Franklin, TN

Re: Extreme cold overnight hits Leaf Plus cold limits

Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:49 am

jjeff wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:17 am
Thanks, I'll give it a try, it just seemed counterintuitive for energy savings to run both heat and A/C but your idea of being able to use recirc and in my case not bring in sub-zero temps may more than offset the A/C draw. Also I wonder if the A/C will even come on in my zero temps, sounds like you were in warmer temps....
Well basically, when it gets cold enough, the AC shuts off. If you leave the AC off, then the heat pump runs in reverse to produce heat, plus the element heat, uses more power. So using AC in the extreme cold is the same as having it turned off. :lol:
2020 Leaf SL Plus - (Manufacture Date March 2020)
2013 Leaf SV (8 faithful years of service before trade in at 75,679 miles)

PrairieLEAF
Posts: 200
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:58 am
Delivery Date: 04 Feb 2019
Location: Weld County, Colorado

Re: Extreme cold overnight hits Leaf Plus cold limits

Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:46 am

It's common to combine A/C with defrosting (many vehicles do this automatically) so that the air blowing on the windows is extra dry. I presume the LEAF also runs the A/C compressor when requested, even in extreme cold. Then the resistance-heated air will blend in to satisfy temperature request. Warm (capable of absorbing more moisture) air-conditioned (dry) air is most effective for defogging.

I'll have to try Heat+A/C+Recirc...thanks!
2016 LEAF S-30 w/QC "Lexie"

jjeff
Posts: 2379
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: Extreme cold overnight hits Leaf Plus cold limits

Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:12 pm

knightmb wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:49 am
jjeff wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:17 am
Thanks, I'll give it a try, it just seemed counterintuitive for energy savings to run both heat and A/C but your idea of being able to use recirc and in my case not bring in sub-zero temps may more than offset the A/C draw. Also I wonder if the A/C will even come on in my zero temps, sounds like you were in warmer temps....
Well basically, when it gets cold enough, the AC shuts off. If you leave the AC off, then the heat pump runs in reverse to produce heat, plus the element heat, uses more power. So using AC in the extreme cold is the same as having it turned off. :lol:
Yes for a heat pump Leaf that makes sense but unfortunately neither of my Leafs have a heat pump, the '12SL was before Nissan used a heat pump and the '13S like I believe all S models also lack the heat pump. If purchasing a new Leaf or even used I'd probably only look for one with a heat pump now that I know more about it. I purchased the '13 new but I wasn't educated in the heat pump and my saleslady knew even less of the Leaf than I did :roll:
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
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DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2686
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Extreme cold overnight hits Leaf Plus cold limits

Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:55 pm

My S+ does not have a heat pump. I do want to do the same test now with our SV+.
2019 S Plus (93.86% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (93.35% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
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DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15634
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Extreme cold overnight hits Leaf Plus cold limits

Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:04 pm

jjeff wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:17 am
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:34 am
.....Battery temp.was interesting. I left with a high temp monitor reading of 51.5F, was at 52.5F at the halfway point, but was at 56.6F at the end (i did drive faster on way back), even at 12-15F outside temp battery warmed a little bit.
Thanks, I'll give it a try, it just seemed counterintuitive for energy savings to run both heat and A/C but your idea of being able to use recirc and in my case not bring in sub-zero temps may more than offset the A/C draw. Also I wonder if the A/C will even come on in my zero temps, sounds like you were in warmer temps....
I had a similar experience to you last weekend driving my '12 around when it was again around 0F. It started out with a battery temp of about 0F but quickly warmed up to 20F after only about 5 miles of mostly side streets with full heat, not full speed freeway driving. After less than 1 mile of driving I got the turtle, with I believe >60 SOC. It wasn't the full, crawl speed turtle you get with extremely low SOC but rather just limited me to 4? power bubbles(less than half) but was perfectly adequate to drive in. Note the turtle still stayed on my dash up to my halfway destination when the battery was 20F but after shopping for about an hour I started the Leaf, where I believe the battery was still around 20F and the turtle was no longer on. The power bubbles were still not full but just lacked the top 1/4 vs before when I only had the bottom 1/4 available.
I should note my '12 only has 8 battery bars so maybe that explains some of the odd behavior I'm having in extreme cold temps, looking at the histogram? of the battery cell voltages are all over the map :(
Need to dispel the ideology that AC will produce cold air somehow counteracting the heat. The A/C is only removing moisture and drier air is easier to heat up. I also found in milder temps, the AC on with vents closed helps to keep the windshield clear. The AC draws very little power with LEAF Spy registering power slightly less than half the time with the predominant draw being 50wh
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 19,653 mi, 93.47% SOH
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DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2686
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Extreme cold overnight hits Leaf Plus cold limits

Sat Feb 13, 2021 6:11 pm

Ok, was out to get some free NCTC DC juice (what else is there to do anyway) and tried with the SV+. When just running heat, (6-8F) outside, both heater and heat pump ran (heat pump showing up as AC draw). When you click on AC, the heat pump stops, and it just goes to the resistive heater. With recirculation on, it did seem like lower power draw with both heat and AC on, but too short of a test to know for sure.

Thankfully the DC charger is in a garage, so it was a much more pleasant 32F. 30 minute charging session only added 15F (44 to 59F) to the battery temp. Interesting that post charging,temps went up an additional 1/2 degree before starting to slide on way home.
2019 S Plus (93.86% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (93.35% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
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Kieran973
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:51 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2019
Location: near NY, NY

Re: Extreme cold overnight hits Leaf Plus cold limits

Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:31 pm

Is there a consensus around cold weather best practices if the main goal is to minimize battery damage and/or long term battery degradation in the Leaf? I feel like I have a good grasp of how to navigate this with warm temperatures, but not with cold temps. Some basic questions that I don’t have clear answers to:

1. What ambient temperature lows can lead to battery damage or long term degradation?

2. What battery temperature lows can lead to battery damage or long term degradation?

3. Is there a battery temp threshold below which you should not DC fast charge?

4. Is there a battery temp threshold below which you should not AC charge?
current: Black 2019 SV Plus with all-weather package (purchased 5/20)
former: Silver 2019 SV with all-weather package (purchased 5/19; traded in 5/20 with 15,000 miles)

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 16918
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Extreme cold overnight hits Leaf Plus cold limits

Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:50 pm

As long as the battery stays within the temp range that Nissan specifies, there should be little or no damage from cold. I personally wouldn't DCFC with no temp bars showing.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
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SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6249
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Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Extreme cold overnight hits Leaf Plus cold limits

Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:10 pm

Kieran973 wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:31 pm
Some basic question
Ambient is irrelevant

AC Vs DC is irrelevant; the question you are rightly asking about is current (Amps). I've seen my Tesla refuse to charge the pack at all when it is in the 20s F, but my pack is low Cobalt and as a result low temp intolerant.Tesla is able to heat up the pack before charging; I'm not sure about the LEAF. Does the LEAF BMS manage current in the cold ? I don't know, but if not then it is on you. It is my practice in the winter to charge only soon *after* a drive to avoid these possible issues.

I suggest you do NOT rely on what Nissan says is "OK." That is based on warranty considerations.

The presumed battery damage mechanism goes under the name of 'battery plating' or 'Li plating.'
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
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03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
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LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Re: Extreme cold overnight hits Leaf Plus cold limits

Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:04 pm

I suggest you do NOT rely on what Nissan says is "OK." That is based on warranty considerations.
Which is exactly why I suggested that he use Nissan's CYA recommendations for temps. They are most likely a little conservative. I could be mistaken.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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