martyscholes
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:40 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Dec 2018
Leaf Number: 303385
Location: Colorado Springs

Rapidgate Firsthand last Weekend

Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:21 am

I had read quite a bit about the back-to-back DC fast-charging problems, but did not experience it until yesterday. I intentionally took a 400-mile road trip from Colorado Springs to Flagler CO, to Colby KS, then back. The first charge in Flagler started at 43 kW, taking about an hour to get to 94%. In Colby, the charge started at 24 kW (roughly half) and took about two hours to get to 94%. Back in Flagler, the third charge started at 16 kW, taking about three hours to get to 94%. I noticed that the battery after the first charge was quite hot with the gauge showing the temperature right up to the red line, but showing no red. Ambient temperature was about 35 degrees F.

Since I had plenty of time during the third charge, I did a little bit of reading. It seems that Nissan engineered enough cooling to remove the thermal energy generated during driving. Even though driving consumed about 25 kW on the open road, the air flow underneath the car was enough to remove the heat. Nissan also engineered enough cooling for 6.6 kW overnight charging even in still air. Nissan even engineered enough heat capacity to absorb the thermal energy generated in a single rapid charge while the car is sitting still (no airflow). It seems that Nissan did not engineer for still air while rapid charging a hot battery, made hot by the previous charge. Rapidgate is still a thing, at least in my 2019 SL 40 kWh.

A part of me understands why Nissan did this. The cost and complexity of active thermal management would be a benefit only in multiple rapid charging trips. Honestly, those types of trips are relatively rare. Even so, this is not a car for road trips.

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Rapidgate Firsthand last Weekend

Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:29 pm

Do you have a Leaf or a Leaf+?

What was the battery temp or bars at each charge?
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

cwerdna
Posts: 11317
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Rapidgate Firsthand last Weekend

Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:41 pm

His post says "2019 SL 40 kWh" so that's not a Plus.

Was there a reason to go all the way to 94%? Isn't charging quite slow well before that point?

Bolts will do repeated charges at up to 55 kW (w/a sufficiently powerful DC FC) over and over until you hit ~50 to 55% SoC or so and then will start ramping down (to ~37 kW for the first drop). And, it might start out slow if the battery's too cold.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

martyscholes
Posts: 51
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:40 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Dec 2018
Leaf Number: 303385
Location: Colorado Springs

Re: Rapidgate Firsthand last Weekend

Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:56 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 1:41 pm
His post says "2019 SL 40 kWh" so that's not a Plus.

Was there a reason to go all the way to 94%? Isn't charging quite slow well before that point?
It is a regular SL. I was getting nervous about having enough charge to make it to the next Electrify America charger. Out of caution, I charged to 94% at each stop. The whole point of this trip was to see what would happen on a longer road trip. Charging a little too long was a price I was willing to pay to give myself more confidence in the next leg of the journey.

Tortoisehead77
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:59 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2018
Leaf Number: 307925
Location: Portland, Oregon USA

Re: Rapidgate Firsthand last Weekend

Mon Jan 27, 2020 2:49 pm

martyscholes wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 10:21 am
I had read quite a bit about the back-to-back DC fast-charging problems, but did not experience it until yesterday. I intentionally took a 400-mile road trip from Colorado Springs to Flagler CO, to Colby KS, then back. The first charge in Flagler started at 43 kW, taking about an hour to get to 94%. In Colby, the charge started at 24 kW (roughly half) and took about two hours to get to 94%. Back in Flagler, the third charge started at 16 kW, taking about three hours to get to 94%. I noticed that the battery after the first charge was quite hot with the gauge showing the temperature right up to the red line, but showing no red. Ambient temperature was about 35 degrees F.

Since I had plenty of time during the third charge, I did a little bit of reading. It seems that Nissan engineered enough cooling to remove the thermal energy generated during driving. Even though driving consumed about 25 kW on the open road, the air flow underneath the car was enough to remove the heat. Nissan also engineered enough cooling for 6.6 kW overnight charging even in still air. Nissan even engineered enough heat capacity to absorb the thermal energy generated in a single rapid charge while the car is sitting still (no airflow). It seems that Nissan did not engineer for still air while rapid charging a hot battery, made hot by the previous charge. Rapidgate is still a thing, at least in my 2019 SL 40 kWh.

A part of me understands why Nissan did this. The cost and complexity of active thermal management would be a benefit only in multiple rapid charging trips. Honestly, those types of trips are relatively rare. Even so, this is not a car for road trips.
Did you have the service bulletin completed that is supposed to address this issue? You have to request the service bulletin when you take your car in for service, otherwise they will not complete it.
Last edited by Tortoisehead77 on Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2194
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Rapidgate Firsthand last Weekend

Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:02 pm

16 kWh charge rate is a pain. The lowest I had heard before (where not station limited) was 20. Even at 10 and 11 bars on my Plus I could get 50 kWh. (I haven’t seen 12 bars)
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

cwerdna
Posts: 11317
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Rapidgate Firsthand last Weekend

Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:16 pm

^^^
Charging rate is measured in kW, not kWh.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Astros
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:21 am
Delivery Date: 28 Apr 2018
Leaf Number: 310136
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Rapidgate Firsthand last Weekend

Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:09 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:02 pm
16 kWh charge rate is a pain. The lowest I had heard before (where not station limited) was 20. Even at 10 and 11 bars on my Plus I could get 50 kWh. (I haven’t seen 12 bars)
With my former 40kWh Leaf I would routinely see 16-18kW charging for the third charging stop, but that was before the fix came out.
2019 Deep Blue SL Plus

alozzy
Posts: 1645
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Rapidgate Firsthand last Weekend

Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:11 pm

Astros wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 4:09 pm
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 3:02 pm
16 kWh charge rate is a pain. The lowest I had heard before (where not station limited) was 20. Even at 10 and 11 bars on my Plus I could get 50 kWh. (I haven’t seen 12 bars)
With my former 40kWh Leaf I would routinely see 16-18kW charging for the third charging stop, but that was before the fix came out.
That's like turbo charged L2 ;)

For anyone that owns a 40 kWh LEAF and has had the rapidgate software fix installed, please share your feedback!
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

Astros
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:21 am
Delivery Date: 28 Apr 2018
Leaf Number: 310136
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Rapidgate Firsthand last Weekend

Mon Jan 27, 2020 8:53 pm

alozzy wrote:
Mon Jan 27, 2020 6:11 pm
That's like turbo charged L2 ;)

For anyone that owns a 40 kWh LEAF and has had the rapidgate software fix installed, please share your feedback!
@DaveinOlyWA did a good comparison trip last summer, with a write up on his blog: http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2019/08/

The key takeaway for me was that a rapidgate charge that used to be only 16kW was 29kW at the same battery temperature after the update had been applied.
2019 Deep Blue SL Plus

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