GroundLoop
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Re: Barrons' reporter runs Leaf flat in Manhattan

Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:59 pm

palmermd wrote:This could be a problem for anybody who thinks the car can go 100 miles and will direct them to a charge station if the battery is low (which is how the car is advertised). We all know better since the readers of this forum are far more well informed than the average public (and even most of the EV journalists).
Then we're also more informed than the LEAF Tour spokespersons and anyone who listened to them.

They said pretty much exactly that, to the letter, at the Drive events, did they not?

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DeaneG
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Re: Barrons' reporter runs Leaf flat in Manhattan

Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:42 pm

wcanl wrote: Even if she did get to a charging station, what would that really get her?

On level II, don't you only get about 1 mile of range per 5 minutes charge?
Correct, so a 4-minute additional charge would have taken her home. Nothing wrong with that as long as it is noted in the nav system.
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Googler
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Re: Barrons' reporter runs Leaf flat in Manhattan

Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:49 pm

GroundLoop wrote:
palmermd wrote:They said pretty much exactly that, to the letter, at the Drive events, did they not?
Much of the information that was provided to me at the drive events was false. That includes projections on the cost per mile, the range, the battery degradation, the acceleration, and Carwings.

palmermd
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Re: Barrons' reporter runs Leaf flat in Manhattan

Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:54 pm

wcanl wrote:
DeaneG wrote:I'd put half the blame on Nissan for not maintaining the charging database. You'd think it would be their highest non-manufacturing priority.
Even if she did get to a charging station, what would that really get her?

On level II, don't you only get about 1 mile of range per 5 minutes charge?

she ran out of charge 0.8 miles from home. How long would she have had to sit there waiting to get enough of a buffer to feel safe to drive home. 15-30 minutes? bet she would have spent the time to make sure she got home when the car kept saying to stop and find a charge station, if it had directed her to one.
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leaf561
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Re: Barrons' reporter runs Leaf flat in Manhattan

Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:53 pm

It is also the perception. In ICE cars, when you get the red light for fuel, you know you have 1 or 2 gallons in reserve and you could easily go another 10 or 20 miles.

Also, it seems when the LEAF gets closer to running out of charge, it just gives two dashes, which could be misleading for some.

I understand EV is not for everyone, but by expecting to change driving habits is not going to work on a car which is sold to the mass.

In Bay Area traffic, I don't think I can drive less than 65 MPH on the freeway. And my drive to work is around 65 to 70 miles round trip.

Anyway, the reporter had some good points. If you are driving to new place, you are bound take a wrong exit or lose your way. And it could turn out to be costly...
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TRONZ
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Re: Barrons' reporter runs Leaf flat in Manhattan

Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:56 pm

So a "reporter" gets in a car, drives it till it's empty....... AND???? What did she think a car would do???? :roll:
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DaveEV
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Re: Barrons' reporter runs Leaf flat in Manhattan

Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:46 pm

wcanl wrote:She probably went in with the belief that Leafs can go 100 miles on a charge. She stated the maps showed the trip would be 75 miles, but she drove 82 miles including a wrong turn that cost 2 miles.
Seems like it. But she also failed to mention what the DTE indicator read at various points along the way.
wcanl wrote:As for the 65 MPH ordeal, what if all traffic is doing no less than 65 MPH? That can be common. And if you think Prius drivers were getting slammed for going slow in the commute lane, well, you get the picture.
Nice strawman. But as for the actual drive in question - it's clear she made no effort to drive conservatively as she was firmly parked in the #1 lane on the segments which had her on the highway.
wcanl wrote:Leaf is a start, but Prius PHV will likely outsell this thing in 2 years.
In 2 years we'll likely have all these early adopter issues worked out, but there will still be a lot of work to do - but you're most likely right.
wcanl wrote:Even if she did get to a charging station, what would that really get her? On level II, don't you only get about 1 mile of range per 5 minutes charge?
As others said - she only needed 5 minutes of L2 charging to get her home.
GroundLoop wrote:
palmermd wrote:This could be a problem for anybody who thinks the car can go 100 miles and will direct them to a charge station if the battery is low (which is how the car is advertised).
They said pretty much exactly that, to the letter, at the Drive events, did they not?
At the drive event I was at, the spokesman was very careful to state that YMMV and showed the various DTE scenarios. I do think that Nissan should probably emphasize the EPA estimated 73 mile range as that seems to be a better indicator for most people's driving style rather than the 100 mi LA4 range.

ERG4ALL
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Re: Barrons' reporter runs Leaf flat in Manhattan

Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:56 am

A couple of points. Being and early adopter and originally from Detroit, I look at the LEAF similarly to when Henry Ford came out with the model T. Others may not know that he had started and floundered a couple of times before the model T came out. I liken that to the many EVs that have been built and even marketed without much success.

When something needed fixing he would make changes right in the middle of a model year. Enthusiasts have to know what month the car was made to be able to correctly restore these vehicles. That was true even when the model A was in production. I liken this to the changes that we will see to fix these various pesky items people complain about.

The point is we may be the vanguard of a whole new way of personal transportation and can expect what is past is prologue. I imagine that in the very beginning that people would have told him that the car would never be a success. After all how are you going to go anywhere when you can't get gasoline? In the very beginning before gasoline stations, gasoline was sold at pharmacies. Also, people would say that there were no roads that you could navigate when the spring turned them into mud holes. Then what happened? Because there was a demand the infrastructure got built. That is why I am a firm supporter of EVs and the LEAF in particular as being the first practical, affordable EV.

The second point regarding PHEV is that they still use gasoline which will do nothing but increase in price. At the same time we see Moore's law (albeit with a smaller annual increase) at work with the price of renewable energy, in particular decreasing cost per watt of photovoltaic.

For example let's say the effective range for the average driver is 72 miles per charge. In the Phoenix area the off-peak electrical cost is 3 cents per kilowatt hour. With the charge being 24 kWh then a full charge would cost 72 cents. My PT Cruiser on a good day gets 24 miles per gallon. Thus, for the 72 miles, it costs me 3 gallons of gas or about $10.80. You can play with the numbers for your particular case but I'm sure it will always favor electricity over oil.
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Jimmydreams
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Re: Barrons' reporter runs Leaf flat in Manhattan

Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:05 am

wcanl wrote:
palmermd wrote:The The reporter afterward found out that she passed a dozen charging locations, but the car could not direct her to stop in for a quick top-off.
What is a 'quick top off'? 12 mi chrg / hr. on 220V? Isn't that 1 mi charge / 5 minutes?
I have stopped at my dealer twice to 'top off' when I thought I needed a few extra miles to make it home. One time I just sat there talking with my salesman about the car (plenty to talk about to take up the time spent charging) and the second time I only added 10 miles to the display so I took the time to call a family member. MOST of us have smart phones that have enough aps and connectivity to help make the 30-40 minutes spent 'topping off' to good use. If it's the exception rather than the rule, spending the time to 'top off' isn't a big deal when you think about the options. ;)
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TomT
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Re: Barrons' reporter runs Leaf flat in Manhattan

Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:35 am

Top Off is probably a bad term in this context since it implies that you are close to full and just putting in a bit of charge to fill it the rest of the way up. In actually, the opposite will probably be true: You are low or certainly nowhere near full, and are just putting in enough charge to get you where you need to go...

Jimmydreams wrote:
wcanl wrote:
palmermd wrote:The The reporter afterward found out that she passed a dozen charging locations, but the car could not direct her to stop in for a quick top-off.
What is a 'quick top off'? 12 mi chrg / hr. on 220V? Isn't that 1 mi charge / 5 minutes?
I have stopped at my dealer twice to 'top off' when I thought I needed a few extra miles to make it home. One time I just sat there talking with my salesman about the car (plenty to talk about to take up the time spent charging) and the second time I only added 10 miles to the display so I took the time to call a family member. MOST of us have smart phones that have enough aps and connectivity to help make the 30-40 minutes spent 'topping off' to good use. If it's the exception rather than the rule, spending the time to 'top off' isn't a big deal when you think about the options. ;)
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