voltamps
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:13 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2020

Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Tue Apr 13, 2021 6:04 am

denwood wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:45 pm
The car was bought new by a local driving school (I know the owner), so I'm about 100% sure the fluid was never touched. The fluid came out brown, and yes the plugs are magnetic. I was expecting a lot more metal evidence based on this thread, but the plugs were clean. The two plugs had the typical "snap" of a plug in an aluminium case that has never been removed. The car likely had very little highway mileage given its previous life. Given i have the car chassis pulled apart, this was the easy job on my list.
That's the clue. Driving school. No hard accelerations to stress out the gear teeth. Driving students treat it gingerly to pass (although if I was the teacher, I'd give extra points for snappy launches). All that low-RPM torque may be responsible for wearing down the gears, makes sense.

Start a thread on why in the Wide World of Sports would you have the chassis apart on an '18 Leaf? ???
Edit: OK, I think I saw some threads on why.
2020 Leaf SV
2016 Ford Focus Electric (traded in at 34k miles, 5 years)

estomax
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:23 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 424033
Location: Seattle

Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:15 pm

alright to add to the data I dropped my Redline D6 after running that 40k miles and put in the Valvoline ULV ATF.

This is what the drain plug looks like after 40k miles of Redline D6 (put it in at 40k miles, now at 80k miles). Both the fill and drain plug magnets had an even amount of (very little) debris on it, so I might pull the fill plug after 10k miles and see if the ULV is causing any extra wear or not.
Image

Doing the job for the second time is much faster than first time around, taking the belly pan on and off might be the most time consuming part of this whole thing.
Image
Still had the original hose that i used to fill it with redline d6 in the drawer.
Image

Here is the redline d6 fluid that came out, looks a lot more milky than I expected to be honest.
Image

Marko
2013 Leaf SL
27k, 93% SoH 2/17 46k, 94% SoH 2/18
62k, 87% SoH 2/19 75k, 83% SoH 2/20
81k, 81% SoH 2/21

voltamps
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:13 pm
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Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:10 am

estomax wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:15 pm
This is what the drain plug looks like after 40k miles of Redline D6 (put it in at 40k miles, now at 80k miles). Both the fill and drain plug magnets had an even amount of (very little) debris on it,
So, you run a Driving School, apparently? :lol:

Very low wear. You just proved Redline D6 is awesome high-performance fluid. Assuming you hit the accel pedal some.

Your pictures also show it's still red, which means oxidation didn't affect it much either. I'd credit the expensive base oils in the Redline D6 for that. If the all-PAO Amsoil SS 6.3 cSt fluid in mine is as good as the Redline D6 (probably(?)), I'd be happy.
estomax wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 10:15 pm
so I might pull the fill plug after 10k miles and see if the ULV is causing any extra wear or not.
I'm a little hesitant to go below Nissan's 5.2 cSt minimum kv100 spec. In reality, it will likely be not a problem to dip down a bit. For example, Ravenol ULV, all PAO+Ester, is at kv100 3.3, if you're feeling brave !! Any lower, and you've got water.
2020 Leaf SV
2016 Ford Focus Electric (traded in at 34k miles, 5 years)

knightmb
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:41 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2021
Leaf Number: 306291
Location: Franklin, TN

Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:00 am

voltamps wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:10 am
I'm a little hesitant to go below Nissan's 5.2 cSt minimum kv100 spec. In reality, it will likely be not a problem to dip down a bit. For example, Ravenol ULV, all PAO+Ester, is at kv100 3.3, if you're feeling brave !! Any lower, and you've got water.
I was too, but it doesn't seem to get hot enough to approach it's max viscosity, so it should be fine during the summer, but I suspect, will perform very well during the winter. I'm still gathering efficiency numbers from my change and so far, they look damn good, almost too good, I'm at a point where I can't contribute everything to a massive tail-wind anymore. :lol:
2020 Leaf SL Plus - (Manufacture Date March 2020)

knightmb
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Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:57 am

Just some recent numbers, sorry about the rough format, trying to copy/paste from the Nissan website and put into a spreadsheet isn't that easy and then trying to paste it here in a readable format without requiring an external link. The lbs are CO2, just was easier to leave it in than trying to edit it all out. :mrgreen:

April 2021 (basically, the same driving route during the month, weather has been fairly consistent here, no AC/Heat needed)
These below never have any speeds greater than 55 MPH, but is the same distance driving to and from the same start and end place, even the times are consistent day to day.

Route 1
7.5 miles 4.7 miles/kWh 4 lbs
7.5 miles 4.7 miles/kWh 4 lbs
7.5 miles 4.7 miles/kWh 4 lbs
7.5 miles 5.1 miles/kWh 4 lbs <- Gear Oil Change

Route 2
6.6 miles 4.4 miles/kWh 4 lbs
6.6 miles 4.4 miles/kWh 4 lbs
6.6 miles 5.0 miles/kWh 4 lbs <- Gear Oil Change -- What?!?

Route 3
5.3 miles 5.1 miles/kWh 4 lbs
5.3 miles 5.1 miles/kWh 4 lbs
5.3 miles 5.5 miles/kWh 4 lbs <- Gear Oil Change

Route 4
4.6 miles 3.9 miles/kWh 2 lbs
4.6 miles 3.9 miles/kWh 2 lbs
4.6 miles 3.9 miles/kWh 2 lbs
4.6 miles 4.3 miles/kWh 2 lbs <- Gear Oil Change
4.6 miles 4.3 miles/kWh 2 lbs <- Gear Oil Change
4.6 miles 4.3 miles/kWh 2 lbs <- Gear Oil Change

Route 5
3.7 miles 4.1 miles/kWh 2 lbs
3.7 miles 4.1 miles/kWh 2 lbs
3.7 miles 4.1 miles/kWh 2 lbs
3.7 miles 4.1 miles/kWh 2 lbs
3.7 miles 5.0 miles/kWh 2 lbs <- Gear Oil Change -- How?!?!? :lol:
2020 Leaf SL Plus - (Manufacture Date March 2020)

estomax
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:23 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Jan 2017
Leaf Number: 424033
Location: Seattle

Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:46 pm

voltamps wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:10 am
For example, Ravenol ULV, all PAO+Ester, is at kv100 3.3, if you're feeling brave !! Any lower, and you've got water.
Ravenol is 3.3 eh? Stop finding us more things to buy and try! :) i think that stuff is not available in the states anyway?

Otherwise my average miles per kwh has been in the 3.3-3.7 range since the pandemic started, no traffic so 70+ on freeway and liberal accelerator use since i am not going for efficiency numbers anymore with the lesser amount of driving ive been doing..

knight - those seem like some amazing efficiency bumps. i will be curious to see what mine are, will be harder to measure since i dont have a regular commute these days though.
2013 Leaf SL
27k, 93% SoH 2/17 46k, 94% SoH 2/18
62k, 87% SoH 2/19 75k, 83% SoH 2/20
81k, 81% SoH 2/21

knightmb
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:41 pm
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Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:46 pm

estomax wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:46 pm
knight - those seem like some amazing efficiency bumps. i will be curious to see what mine are, will be harder to measure since i dont have a regular commute these days though.
I've been looking over past weather forecast, the common thing I noticed is a cold, overnight temperature. Basically, running those routes with a cold (probably sub 50F gear box) even though the weather is pleasant during the day. When temperatures warm up more, I bet either my numbers will stay the same (still better at least) or some insane boost in efficiency when the ULV part really kicks in. Time will tell, can't wait! Hoping for the best!
2020 Leaf SL Plus - (Manufacture Date March 2020)

voltamps
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Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:50 pm

Wow, surprising how big the efficiency gains appear to be. I do find it suspicious that all the current EVs out there (Tesla, Bolt, Leaf, Kona, i3, Niro, Soul, etc.) ALL use ATF or GL4 fluid of around 5.2 to 6.x cSt. If the gains are really that good, wouldn't they jump on thinner Ultra Low Viscosity (ULV) ATF? Helps the advertised all-important EPA Range numbers, after all.

What do all those engineers know that we don't?
Could be they spec thicker-than-needed fluid for 2 reasons:
1. Hot climates like AZ. and
2. Shearing the VII chemicals (polymer plastic type chemicals break with mechanical stress) over the first 30k miles reduces viscosity naturally, until some point when oxidation counters that viscosity drop as the fluid ages, causing visc to ramp up gradually.

On an engineering test bench, not in customer's Leafs, I'd like to see the effect of using a very thin ATF fluid with a good dose of gear moly (Liqui Moly 2019 MoS2 Anti-Friction Gear Lubricant):
Image
estomax wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:46 pm
Ravenol is 3.3 eh? Stop finding us more things to buy and try! :) i think that stuff is not available in the states anyway?
I think you're right, not available in N. America. I hadn't noticed that.

In the past, I've looked at Ravenol products on their home Germany website, and it is typically only available here in the U.S. if blauparts.com, ravenolamerica.com, or amazon.com imports it. Some of their stuff just doesn't get shipped here in bulk stock. .....

Ravenol is interesting since they use expensive base oils excessively, while other more "profit-responsible" companies make sure most of their products use cheaper GroupIII full-syn oils. Kind of cool for somebody looking for the best materials though. ...... That's not to say big oil companies like Mobil, Castrol, Valvoline, etc. don't make good oil, as they are always dependable.
2020 Leaf SV
2016 Ford Focus Electric (traded in at 34k miles, 5 years)

knightmb
Posts: 827
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:41 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2021
Leaf Number: 306291
Location: Franklin, TN

Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:36 pm

voltamps wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 4:50 pm
Wow, surprising how big the efficiency gains appear to be. I do find it suspicious that all the current EVs out there (Tesla, Bolt, Leaf, Kona, i3, Niro, Soul, etc.) ALL use ATF or GL4 fluid of around 5.2 to 6.x cSt. If the gains are really that good, wouldn't they jump on thinner Ultra Low Viscosity (ULV) ATF? Helps the advertised all-important EPA Range numbers, after all.

What do all those engineers know that we don't?
Could be they spec thicker-than-needed fluid for 2 reasons:
1. Hot climates like AZ. and
2. Shearing the VII chemicals (polymer plastic type chemicals break with mechanical stress) over the first 30k miles reduces viscosity naturally, until some point when oxidation counters that viscosity drop as the fluid ages, causing visc to ramp up gradually.
I think it might sit between "good enough" and "we don't make stuff like that". Looking at the chart you posted, a lot of those brands start to converge once the temperature starts to get high, so I think even in AZ climate, it doesn't seem to be an issue with viscosity if the outdoor temperatures are high while the user runs AC (thus blowing more heat on the gear box). As you mentioned though, maybe there is a minimum viscosity needed to protect the gears so they can continue to sling the lubricate around freely and properly along with the chemical changes over time from the gears crushing the oil.

I suspect that the good numbers I'm seeing are only because I am driving under 55 MPH up and down hills. There might something that is making regen more efficient for example or some other effect that stacks and increases the efficiency for those short trips.

I don't have any routes to test 70 MPH for like 15 miles yet... I have plenty of data for those in the past but have not had the opportunity to drive them with the new oil. That is where I am really curious to see if there is a difference. I suspect I won't see a difference in efficiency because of the high speed and air resistance that might cancel out the benefit of the ULV.

Now, at least two of us here are running the ULV, I'm sure we will be the first to complain if something goes wrong. :lol:
2020 Leaf SL Plus - (Manufacture Date March 2020)

voltamps
Posts: 106
Joined: Thu Dec 17, 2020 6:13 pm
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Re: How To: Reduction Gear Oil Change

Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:24 am

For most people reading this, don't use a thinner fluid than the Nissan Matic S, unless you accept the extra-wear risk.
Anything thinner & we're just guessing as to how it affects long-term wear.
Last edited by voltamps on Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
2020 Leaf SV
2016 Ford Focus Electric (traded in at 34k miles, 5 years)

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