DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15145
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Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
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Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:20 pm

knightmb wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:47 am
alozzy wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 10:27 am
Great video, very well explained and, other than figuring out how I would lower and raise the battery pack, seems easier than I thought it would be. Fantastic that you were able to keep this old LEAF on the road for your customer, there's finally hope for a reasonably priced upgrade!

The hard part, where I live, would be sourcing a reasonably priced 40 kWh pack. Not even sure where to begin with that hunt, but hopefully that will be easier in a few more years, when my 2013 no longer has adequate range...
It's odd because where I am, the opposite is true where my area is awash with leak packs, 40 and 62 kwh from salvage vehicles. Maybe I should start a shipping business :mrgreen:
:lol: :lol:

Your perspective is warped, Step away from the factory!!
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 14,342.8 mi, 93.16% SOH
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Stanton
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Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:30 am

Has anybody used this service/website to purchase a wrecked Leaf...for it's battery pack?
https://www.autobidmaster.com/en/
Seems to me it would be a good source of (Gen 2.0) 40kWh/62kWh battery packs (based on the trim level).
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Oilpan4
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Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:29 am

I always got out bid. I would find the most crashed car possible that appeared to still have an intact battery and I always got out bid.
I just couldn't bring my self to pay $8,000 or $9,000 for a wrecked car.
So if you have 10 grand burning a hole in your pocket you can get one.
40kwh cars were the same way for a few years, then when the 62kwh cars hit the wreck auctions it cut the price of 40kwh batteries in half very quickly.
So just wait till the next bigger battery comes out?
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DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2190
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
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Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:25 am

I am seen a couple hints that the 2021 range might be incrementally higher. Do we think battery capacity is going up, or just efficiency (or neither).

The first UDDS tests for the Leaf Plus had a slightly bigger battery than the final production (maybe 2 kWh more) version. While that wouldn't give you too much (7-8 miles), it would at least make you feel like the car was advancing.
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
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Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15145
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
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Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:08 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:25 am
I am seen a couple hints that the 2021 range might be incrementally higher. Do we think battery capacity is going up, or just efficiency (or neither).

The first UDDS tests for the Leaf Plus had a slightly bigger battery than the final production (maybe 2 kWh more) version. While that wouldn't give you too much (7-8 miles), it would at least make you feel like the car was advancing.
small changes happened every year. Chemistry "was" always being tweaked. It remains to be seen whether Nissan thinks they have a viable pack now?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 14,342.8 mi, 93.16% SOH
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SageBrush
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Location: NM

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:05 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:25 am
I am seen a couple hints that the 2021 range might be incrementally higher. Do we think battery capacity is going up, or just efficiency (or neither).

The first UDDS tests for the Leaf Plus had a slightly bigger battery than the final production (maybe 2 kWh more) version. While that wouldn't give you too much (7-8 miles), it would at least make you feel like the car was advancing.
I've read (but not verified) that Nissan has played over the years with the voltage range represented by "0" and "100" percent SoC. That is not progress, it is a mixture of marketing and trade-offs between usable battery range and degradation.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
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WetEV
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Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:59 am

SageBrush wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:05 am
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:25 am
I am seen a couple hints that the 2021 range might be incrementally higher. Do we think battery capacity is going up, or just efficiency (or neither).

The first UDDS tests for the Leaf Plus had a slightly bigger battery than the final production (maybe 2 kWh more) version. While that wouldn't give you too much (7-8 miles), it would at least make you feel like the car was advancing.
I've read (but not verified) that Nissan has played over the years with the voltage range represented by "0" and "100" percent SoC. That is not progress, it is a mixture of marketing and trade-offs between usable battery range and degradation.
True if chemistry is static. Different chemistries have slightly different operating ranges.
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DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2190
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
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Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Tue Nov 03, 2020 4:12 pm

The wall power to the pack was 2kWh higher in the first test than the current 62 battery. I was guessing Nissan wasn't sure they were going to hit the 200 mark, so had an even more stuffed battery case just in case. Once they were sure they were over, they backed out some of the capacity...unless it was just a voltage play.
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

mux
Posts: 303
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Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Thu Nov 05, 2020 6:41 am

There's been a few distinct changes over time, chemically:
- Pure LMO on the initial packs (e-bike chemistry, essentially), very forgiving on charging/discharging current but very bad cycle life
- Al-doped LMO still on gen1 packs, but late in the game (2013ish?), charges to 4100mV/cell now
- Retuned BMS on gen2, no apparent change in the actual battery chemistry, charges to 4130mV/cell
- NMC on gen3 (30kWh), charging to 4180mV/cell
- Higher nickel content NMC on gen4, Li-HV tricks to get a fair bit of extra capacity by charging further (4220-4224mV/cell)
- Then a set of massive BMS retunes to try to fix rapidgate, mostly by increasing charging speeds at subcritical temperatures
- Then a density increase through slightly thinner packaging/electrodes on gen5 (62kWh) and quite a significant change in the BMS again

Altogether we see about 8 distinctly behaving battery packs through the years. I started off by saying they didn't change things every year, but looking back at this list... yeah, on average every year *something* changed in some significant way.

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2190
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
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Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:08 am

Mux

Thanks for the recap. I have been pretty happy with the performance of the 2 2019 Plus (62) packs we have, but we are not overly heavy drivers.

What are you seeing in your shop around the durability of the 40s and 62s.
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

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