mux
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:52 am
Delivery Date: 13 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 6177

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:31 am

A few things;

First of all, Leaf Box is a homeopathic device, it can't actually do most of anything it purports to do. It's not on EV-CAN, where all the information is it's supposed to modify to make B mode/gliding/etc. possible.

So we will definitely never implement the Leaf Box. We do implement a lot of the features LB supposedly adds though, including B mode and gliding.

We also implement bidirectional CHAdeMO, but this requires a separate module (as it needs to intercept the QC CAN). Also it's still quite experimental, as with a lot of features.

Anything we do with the MITM module that causes issues can be resolved with Leaf Spy or, in a really bad case of our hardware failing, bypassing the MITM board and returning the car to its original state (and then clearing all errors). You can't really 'brick' the car this way, although there are instances where you absolutely do need LSP. We're trying to resolve this issue by making a hardware alternative to leaf spy pro, but progress on this is very slow.

Lothsahn
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:43 am

mux wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:31 am
A few things;

First of all, Leaf Box is a homeopathic device, it can't actually do most of anything it purports to do. It's not on EV-CAN, where all the information is it's supposed to modify to make B mode/gliding/etc. possible.

So we will definitely never implement the Leaf Box. We do implement a lot of the features LB supposedly adds though, including B mode and gliding.

We also implement bidirectional CHAdeMO, but this requires a separate module (as it needs to intercept the QC CAN). Also it's still quite experimental, as with a lot of features.

Anything we do with the MITM module that causes issues can be resolved with Leaf Spy or, in a really bad case of our hardware failing, bypassing the MITM board and returning the car to its original state (and then clearing all errors). You can't really 'brick' the car this way, although there are instances where you absolutely do need LSP. We're trying to resolve this issue by making a hardware alternative to leaf spy pro, but progress on this is very slow.
Sorry, I shouldn't have said brick. I meant "if things go wrong, the car may stop functioning, or may stop functioning abruptly while being used, in a way that is highly undesirable and potentially unsafe".

BTW, I'm not implying your solution is unsafe. I fully expect you'll have the issues worked out by the time you release the module. But if there are bugs, the worst case scenario is the car could decide that something has gone wrong and either go to turtle or cut engine power entirely.

Thanks for the info on the LeafBox. It sounded amazing--with reasonable explanations of how it works, but yes, it would have to intercept EV-CAN messages to function.

I look forward to your products!
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

Oilpan4
Gold Member
Posts: 958
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:51 am

Is there any possibility of a mod that would allow charging with the j1772 and low power chademo at the same time?
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

mux
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:52 am
Delivery Date: 13 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 6177

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:07 am

Lothsahn wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:43 am
Sorry, I shouldn't have said brick. I meant "if things go wrong, the car may stop functioning, or may stop functioning abruptly while being used, in a way that is highly undesirable and potentially unsafe".

BTW, I'm not implying your solution is unsafe. I fully expect you'll have the issues worked out by the time you release the module. But if there are bugs, the worst case scenario is the car could decide that something has gone wrong and either go to turtle or cut engine power entirely.

Thanks for the info on the LeafBox. It sounded amazing--with reasonable explanations of how it works, but yes, it would have to intercept EV-CAN messages to function.

I look forward to your products!
Oh, we've had some really bad issues during the beta period, people indeed losing all power while on the passing lane. We've very recently had somebody this happened to and it wasn't even our fault technically (thinking of publishing something about that soon), just an issue that can happen in cold weather with the really degraded 2011 batteries.

We've been testing for a LONG time and trying to understand the car inside and out to prevent this kind of stuff from happening again, but I mean, it is black box reverse engineering. Shit can happen. We do our best to reduce the incidence to, say, being less likely to happen than a blowout or something else of similar calamity, but I don't expect us to be able to craft the perfect product. All we can do is move ever closer to that six sigma, once-in-a-million-miles issue.

@Oilpan4: only with our three phase charging upgrade. There are a lot of firmware and hardware lockouts preventing you from engaging QC relays and the OBC at the same time, at least in the 2011. We can bypass this by adding extra chargers.

Oilpan4
Gold Member
Posts: 958
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:33 pm

What will be the maximum input voltage on your 3 phase charging mod?
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

Lothsahn
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:00 pm

mux wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:07 am
Oh, we've had some really bad issues during the beta period, people indeed losing all power while on the passing lane. We've very recently had somebody this happened to and it wasn't even our fault technically (thinking of publishing something about that soon), just an issue that can happen in cold weather with the really degraded 2011 batteries.
I would be very interested in this. As a previous owner of a 55% SOH 2011, I never had any issues (aside from range) even in very cold weather (-5C). However, the car was always stored in a heated garage, so the battery never really dropped below freezing.
mux wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:07 am
We've been testing for a LONG time and trying to understand the car inside and out to prevent this kind of stuff from happening again, but I mean, it is black box reverse engineering. Shit can happen. We do our best to reduce the incidence to, say, being less likely to happen than a blowout or something else of similar calamity, but I don't expect us to be able to craft the perfect product. All we can do is move ever closer to that six sigma, once-in-a-million-miles issue.
This is absolutely the right attitude. I'm sure that with the rigor and testing you're giving it, your product will be great. But this is just a good reason to consider mux's product vs others--there's a lot of engineering that takes something from "it works" to "it works reliably".
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

mux
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:52 am
Delivery Date: 13 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 6177

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:21 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:33 pm
What will be the maximum input voltage on your 3 phase charging mod?
We use TC Chargers, so 270VAC/350VDC

Oilpan4
Gold Member
Posts: 958
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:58 am

Could their be an option for 480vac?
I have easier access to 3 phase 480 than I do 3 phase 240.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

mux
Posts: 233
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:52 am
Delivery Date: 13 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 6177

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:47 am

Not with any particularly easily available chargers on the market. Can you (legally) rearrange the phases to reduce the AC voltage? In the Netherlands we have flexible three phase; you can either use them as neutral-referenced 120 degree separated 230VAC phases or as delta-style 400VAC three-phase.

camasleaf
Posts: 646
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:20 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2011
Location: Camas, WA

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:21 pm

mux wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:47 am
In the Netherlands we have flexible three phase; you can either use them as neutral-referenced 120 degree separated 230VAC phases or as delta-style 400VAC three-phase.
It depends on the configuration of the 480V system. Phase to neutral loads are not allowed on high/low resistance grounded systems and in ungrounded systems. I believe most new 480V systems are high resistance grounded. Very few (old) systems are neutral solidly grounded.
2011 SLe 06/17/11 Over 89000 miles 61%SOH 13.8kWh
2018 Honda Clarity PHEV
2014 Model S P85 77888 miles 256mile range
5.7kW DC Solar System

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