# of miles before losing the first battery capacity bar

0-10,000
7%
29
10,001-20,000
20%
84
20,001-30,000
28%
117
30,001-40,000
24%
101
40,001-50,000
12%
50
50,001-60,000
4%
16
60,001+
6%
25
 
Total votes: 422
BrockWI
Posts: 872
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:28 am
Delivery Date: 28 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 423875
Location: Green Bay, WI.
Contact: Website

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:46 am

We also have a 2018 Tesla M3 and now after 3 years and 40k miles it has lost 3.61% based on original mileage when new. The Leaf after 3 years and 40k miles was down 6.55%. I am not complaining at all our 2013 Leaf is at 115k and currently down 27.08%, I can say there is no way our Tesla will ever catch our Leaf for total cost per mile driven, but then again we can only drive our Leaf about 45 miles max (in winter) right now :) Perfect for the kids to run to practice and work and charge whenever it is home. I can add the Leaf chews through tires faster than the Tesla, which is weird and yes they are both aligned...
2013 S W/QC 125k miles - 51.33Ahr - 78.48SOH - 68.70Hx - 223GID - down 2 bars
2018 Tesla 3 SR+ 50k miles - 248 Wh/mile
2012 Volt 107k miles
3.3 kw solar pv - XW6048 - eight L16's
4 ton GSHP - 1 ton ASHP
2003 VW TDI 230k miles - 49 mpg lifetime

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15783
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:24 am

BrockWI wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:46 am
We also have a 2018 Tesla M3 and now after 3 years and 40k miles it has lost 3.61% based on original mileage when new. The Leaf after 3 years and 40k miles was down 6.55%. I am not complaining at all our 2013 Leaf is at 115k and currently down 27.08%, I can say there is no way our Tesla will ever catch our Leaf for total cost per mile driven, but then again we can only drive our Leaf about 45 miles max (in winter) right now :) Perfect for the kids to run to practice and work and charge whenever it is home. I can add the Leaf chews through tires faster than the Tesla, which is weird and yes they are both aligned...
Good results but you have two diverging events going on.

Small pack means greater degradation in most cases due to deeper cycling, charging to100% etc. over the larger pack. Big packs typically "lose" a chunk in the first year or so but in most cases, the degradation brings them down to 100% of their rated capacity. We only vaguely know what that means since the capacity is based on a testing parameter that only a handful of people in the entire country drive like so its all about metrics. Even thinking we know what our range was when new is likely more assumptions based on a handful of inconclusive results.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 25,047 mi, 92.12% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BrockWI
Posts: 872
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:28 am
Delivery Date: 28 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 423875
Location: Green Bay, WI.
Contact: Website

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:32 am

Dave I totally agree. I am not sure how much it plays in to it, but until about 80k miles I rarely charged to 100% and slowly I have had to charge it to 100% more and more and definitely cycling it way more often and further than the Tesla. In the Leaf it is not uncommon to use 80% or more of the battery range daily. Often on weekends we drive 100+ miles charging a lot to do this.
2013 S W/QC 125k miles - 51.33Ahr - 78.48SOH - 68.70Hx - 223GID - down 2 bars
2018 Tesla 3 SR+ 50k miles - 248 Wh/mile
2012 Volt 107k miles
3.3 kw solar pv - XW6048 - eight L16's
4 ton GSHP - 1 ton ASHP
2003 VW TDI 230k miles - 49 mpg lifetime

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15783
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:55 am

BrockWI wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:32 am
Dave I totally agree. I am not sure how much it plays in to it, but until about 80k miles I rarely charged to 100% and slowly I have had to charge it to 100% more and more and definitely cycling it way more often and further than the Tesla. In the Leaf it is not uncommon to use 80% or more of the battery range daily. Often on weekends we drive 100+ miles charging a lot to do this.
Your avoiding full charges is how you were able to get so much from the car. In the past decade, the ONE thing I realized the most is you can't buy based on your need. You need to get a car that is AT LEAST 2X the range you will use on a semi regular basis. Tesla got this. No one else did.

Nissan designed an 80 mile LEAF based on a 40 mile average commute. Well, hate to say it Nissan but we sleep 8 hours, work 8 hours so that leaves us 8 hours to drive around but you designed a car that won't cover that part of the day. It only took you 9 years to figure out that an EV needs multiple range options to be successful and while you were figuring that out, nearly everyone passed you by.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 25,047 mi, 92.12% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6517
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:43 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:24 am
We only vaguely know what that means since the capacity is based on a testing parameter that only a handful of people in the entire country drive like so its all about metrics. Even thinking we know what our range was when new is likely more assumptions based on a handful of inconclusive results.
I cannot speak for all EVs but in the case of Tesla your statements are hogwash:
The drop in range after the ~ first year matches *exactly* the drop in usable battery capacity.
The first year is an anomaly because Tesla hides some range that gets used up as the battery 'settles in.**'

Buy a Tesla;
Look at SMT Canbus data.
Then you will have a clue.

** I think this is the SEI formation phase but I'm not positive.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 17269
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:56 pm

Battery capacity can easily be determined by applying a load at full charge and draining it to the lowest rest voltage it can tolerate, while measuring the current flow. It has nothing to do with range testing.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15783
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:37 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:43 pm
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:24 am
We only vaguely know what that means since the capacity is based on a testing parameter that only a handful of people in the entire country drive like so its all about metrics. Even thinking we know what our range was when new is likely more assumptions based on a handful of inconclusive results.
I cannot speak for all EVs but in the case of Tesla your statements are hogwash:
The drop in range after the ~ first year matches *exactly* the drop in usable battery capacity.
The first year is an anomaly because Tesla hides some range that gets used up as the battery 'settles in.**'

Buy a Tesla;
Look at SMT Canbus data.
Then you will have a clue.

** I think this is the SEI formation phase but I'm not positive.
I'm glad everything has worked out for you but for the rest of us, EPA is a test using a driving method we are not "familiar" with. As far as that, I see just as many Teslatonians as any other EVer complaining about real world range.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 25,047 mi, 92.12% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2895
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:42 pm

BrockWI,

Are you determining your loss from Teslafi, or simply by the remaining rated miles? Does the 3.78% account for the efficiency changes due to software updates (which changes the constant)? Just curious.

As to M3 buffer Sage, in the Tesla forums there seems to belief that the buffer in the early M3 was removed or converted to published range a year or two later.
No clue whether there is evidence to support that or not.
2019 S Plus (93.7% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (91.6% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

BrockWI
Posts: 872
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:28 am
Delivery Date: 28 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 423875
Location: Green Bay, WI.
Contact: Website

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:55 pm

Yes I pulled the number from Teslafi, I think it was higher in "a better route planner", like 4.1% or something, but abrp only shows you that number after supercharging. I never look at the "miles", to me that is a GOM :) so I only look at battery % or mi/kWh

I did recently get "Scan my Tesla", but I can't seem to get a soc or Hx number out of that, but it could be I don't know where to look.

I can say that SMT shows about 2% more than the car does and it shows 2 kWh hidden. I did recently run from Minneapolis to Wausau, 188 miles without stopping in 18F weather with some snow and ran it from 94% to 0%, I should have stopped in Eau Claire but was feeling lucky, In summer I have made that same run from 90% to 25%.

I am all for any electric vehicle and choosing the right one for the task at hand. I will admit though the supercharger network (at least around here) is leaps and bounds ahead of CCS, so many more stalls and I have yet to come across a broken one.
2013 S W/QC 125k miles - 51.33Ahr - 78.48SOH - 68.70Hx - 223GID - down 2 bars
2018 Tesla 3 SR+ 50k miles - 248 Wh/mile
2012 Volt 107k miles
3.3 kw solar pv - XW6048 - eight L16's
4 ton GSHP - 1 ton ASHP
2003 VW TDI 230k miles - 49 mpg lifetime

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6517
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: Poll : Number of miles before losing the first bar

Fri Jan 22, 2021 4:52 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:37 pm

I'm glad everything has worked out for you but for the rest of us, EPA is a test using a driving method we are not "familiar" with. As far as that, I see just as many Teslatonians as any other EVer complaining about real world range.
That has jack to do with ability to monitor battery capacity
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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