edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: questionnaire for "short" range/range loss complainers?

Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:31 am

dgpcolorado wrote:
cwerdna wrote:
vrwl wrote: What is your m/kWh reading on the dash? Is it reset for every trip?
On this note, IIRC, it's been established that the dash (black and white LCD in the instrument cluster) m/kWh reading is the one to look at, right? I remember hearing that CarWings was a liar and used to be way off. Not sure about now...
With the exception of some older cars that may need a firmware update, the console (Carwings) mileage efficiency meter reads about 0.1 mile/kWh higher than the dash one. The difference isn't significant for diagnosing range problems.
Sorry, but I think introducing a 2.5%+ error into your kWh use calculations by using the dash m/kWh is significant.

Since you three, and other LEAFers still don't seem to have determined the mathematical relationship between the various kWh use sources, please check with CarWings to see if your LEAF shows the same results that every other LEAF, AFAIK, has reported, to date:

...Here are my suggestions, for you and other CW users.

All 2011-2 LEAFs, AFAIK, have reported the same CarWings odometer and Dash m/kWh error of consistently under-reporting by ~2.5%.

So if your CW miles driven is ~2.5% lower than your dash odometer miles, and your dash m/kWh is showing ~2.5% less than your nav screen m/kWh (0.1 m/kWh lower below ~6 m/kWh, and 0.2 m/kWh lower when you are getting over ~6 m/kWh) this is "normal" for 2011-2012 LEAFs.

Hopefully, Nissan has fixed this error in the 2013s. Any readers have a CW equipped 2013? Please check and report back.

If you are "missing" more miles than this, go to the "rate simulation" page at the CW site.

Here, each "trip" (each start/stop cycle) will be individually reported. Make sure that each of the "trips" you have made each day, is showing up. Each trip will show the same ~2.5% under-report of miles driven as your daily total, and each m/kWh report there will match your dash (if you reset it) for the corresponding trip, again showing the same ~2.5% under-report error.

The Dash, nav screen and CW m/kWh all are mathematically "correct" as a function of the total kWh use reported by CW for every trip, day, or months driving.

It's just that the dash uses the same ~2.5% understated miles to make its calculation of m/kWh as CW does, while the nav screen is always accurate as a function of reported kWh use, as it uses the dash odometer miles, for the m/kWh calculation.

Got it?

BTW, while every LEAF driver, AFAIK, has reported the dash odometer as very close to correct, while using stock tires and wheels, IMO it wouldn't hurt to confirm your dash odometer is correct, by checking with another source, such as Google maps...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=11769" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Below is how Carwings has reported the total energy use from "100%" to ~VLBW on my warm climate LEAF two years from the factory and with ~16,000 miles on the odometer.

While the reported kWh use has dropped quite a bit, My LEAF has displayed no significant loss of range from my first test, to most recent, on range tests of 95-113 miles, when corrected for all test variables, including speed, temperature both when charging and when driving, and my own driving efficiency (as reflected in the regen kWh reported by CarWings).

Of course my battery has lost capacity in the last 18 months, it just not yet a large enough loss to show up clearly in a range test, and is, IMO, nearly certainly far less than the kWh use results below, showing capacity loss approaching 15% just over the last 18 months (when adjusted for battery temperature) would indicate:

All charges prior to testing were to “80%", battery allowed to return to ambient temperature, and then charged @ 16 A 240 V to “100%”, two to three hours before range/capacity test begins, and then left plugged into the EVSE until departure.

IMO The distance driven at the point where the battery temp bars increased, when that has occurred, is useful data as to the relative battery temp and temperature the (temperature variable) battery capacity when the "100%" charge was completed.

9/7/11 18.7 kWh from "100%" to VLBW, 6 dash battery temp bars constant (as recalled later)

5/10 12 17.2 kWh, 5 to 6 temp bars ~mile 73

5/31/12 17.5 kWh, 5 to 6 temp bars ~mile 5

6/17/12 17.5 kWh, 6 temp bars constant

8/18/12 17.0 kWh, 6 temp bars constant

8/30/12 16.8 kWh, 6 temp bars constant

9/08/12 16.7 kWh, 5 to 6 temp bars ~ 4.6 miles

10/1/12 16.6 kWh, 6 temp bars constant

11/3/12 16.2 kwh, 4 to 5 temp bars ~mile 14

1/31 15.7 kWh, 4 to 5 temp bars ~mile 24

2/16/13 15.8 kWh, 4 to 5 temp bars ~mile 18

3/1/13 15.6 kWh, 4 to 5 temp bars ~mile 18

3/13/13 16.0 kWh, 5 bars temp constant


I think it is nearly certain, that the LEAF "gauge error" that has shown up in premature battery capacity bar loss and Wh/gid error in other LEAFs is also displaying itself in the dash and nav screen m/kWh, and also in the (more accurate) CarWings kWh use reports, from my LEAF, as I have posted above.

IMO, any LEAFer who can learn to use CarWings, may see the same sort of results I have, and also be able to largely differentiate any range loss due to real battery capacity loss, from their LEAF's questionable kWh use reports, as I believe I have been able to do.
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dgpcolorado
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Location: The Western Slope, Colorado

Re: questionnaire for "short" range/range loss complainers?

Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:46 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote:With the exception of some older cars that may need a firmware update, the console (Carwings) mileage efficiency meter reads about 0.1 mile/kWh higher than the dash one. The difference isn't significant for diagnosing range problems.
Sorry, but I think introducing a 2.5%+ error into your kWh use calculations by using the dash m/kWh is significant.

Since you three, and other LEAFers still don't seem to have determined the mathematical relationship between the various kWh use sources, please check with CarWings to see if your LEAF shows the same results that every other LEAF, AFAIK, has reported, to date:
Oh come on! You have a serious problem with the "illusion of precision", to use a term from my world as a scientist.

What is important in the use of the mileage meters by new LEAF drivers is relative numbers. It doesn't matter which meter is used when trying to learn to drive efficiently. It just gives the driver a rough idea of how he/she is doing from day to day or season to season. The difference between LEAFfan getting 6 miles/kWh and a newbie getting 3.5 miles/kWh is significant and tells a whole lot about the driver's efficiency and the driving environment. The difference between 3.5 miles/kWh and 3.6 miles/kWh? Not so much.

As for the quality of numbers, I track my electricity use from the wall with a utility meter and that gives me excellent data over time for my driving conditions. However, my driving environment is much, much more complex than that of the vast majority of LEAF drivers so driving baseline routes under repeatable conditions is simply impossible where I live* whether I remember to push the "accept" button or not. Much as I appreciate the numbers from those who can do such repeatable, measured, drives, the patronizing tone of your posts on the subject, as well as the whole Carwings worship thing, gets a bit old after awhile.


*Anyone who doesn't believe me is welcome to arrange a visit and come see for yourself.
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TonyWilliams
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Re: questionnaire for "short" range/range loss complainers?

Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:00 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:... the patronizing tone of your posts on the subject, as well as the whole Carwings worship thing, gets a bit old after awhile.
:twisted:

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: questionnaire for "short" range/range loss complainers?

Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:48 am

TonyWilliams wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote:... the patronizing tone of your posts on the subject, as well as the whole Carwings worship thing, gets a bit old after awhile.
:twisted:

Well, I hate to sound patronizing but do the two of you realize that the mileage error in the dash m/kWh in my LEAF, and in every other LEF as reported (AFAIK) is evidently caused by the CarWings odometer error?

So, it would appear to me, that blindly accepting the erroneous dash m/kWh, as the two of you seem to advocate, could itself be construed as Carwings worship...
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dgpcolorado
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Location: The Western Slope, Colorado

Re: questionnaire for "short" range/range loss complainers?

Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:37 pm

edatoakrun wrote: Well, I hate to sound patronizing but do the two of you realize that the mileage error in the dash m/kWh in my LEAF, and in every other LEF as reported (AFAIK) is evidently caused by the CarWings odometer error?

So, it would appear to me, that blindly accepting the erroneous dash m/kWh, as the two of you seem to advocate, could itself be construed as Carwings worship...
What utter nonsense. I have hard data that show the mileage meter being roughly consistent with measured charge from the wall, given the coarseness of the reading. And what you don't seem to get is that a few percent one way or another is completely irrelevant, especially when using the meter to measure relative driving efficiency. Even the car's odometer will vary with tire size, inflation, and tread depth, if you want to be picky, not that it makes much difference when observing general mileage trends. The illusion of precision again. I don't assume that my odometer is "correct", rather, I assume that it is close enough to accurate to be useful and, more important, consistent from run to run, when other conditions are equal.

The idea behind using the meters is to give LEAF newcomers a really simple way to test and experiment with learning to drive efficiently. The actual value reported is less important than the change observed with varying driving conditions or techniques. Yes, one can use the meters to estimate battery usage and get useful results, but nobody is expecting or claiming absolute precision, so far as I am aware. If the error bars are ~3% that's good enough. If someone observes a discrepancy of 10% to 20% in observed mileage versus expected, then that is something that warrants investigation.

The notion that unless something can be measured to high degree of precision the data are useless is both unhelpful and wrong.
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cwerdna
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Re: questionnaire for "short" range/range loss complainers?

Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:40 am

^^^
Exactly! Given that the dash display is readily available for everyone, it seems like it's good enough for making relative comparisons when people are complaining about "short" range, as long as we're all using the same method/display. In other words, we're comparing apples to apples and not apples to oranges.

Although this isn't likely to be a problem yet, eventually we're going to have more S trim level Leafs and they don't have CarWings. And, whenever Nissan eventually begins charging for it, I'd assume a bunch of people won't want to pay once their free trial runs out. Are there any useful m/kwh displays for the non-subscribers to CarWings other than the b & w dash display that edatoakrun doesn't like?

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CrumpledLeaf
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Re: questionnaire for "short" range/range loss complainers?

Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:47 pm

cwerdna wrote:Ok, here's my a stab on the questions. I'm going to edit my 1st post to point to this one, w/the current questions.

- Where are you?- Turlock, CA
- Where are you traveling to? Via what route?- City Streets(around town)

If unwilling to answer the above, you'll need to tell us the distances and whether there's any net elevation change (Google Earth can help you with that. See http://priuschat.com/forums/freds-house ... oints.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.).

- How fast are you driving? What % is city vs. highway?average less than 25mph, and all city
- What is your miles/kWh reading on the dash? (on the black and white display) Is it reset for every trip? If not, please do so.- 3.9
- How full are you charging to?- 100%
- How are you "determining" your range? Examples: driving down to some value on the GOM (guess-o-meter aka virtually worthless "distance to empty" display), driving down to a certain # of "fuel bars", driving to LBW (Low Battery Warning), VLBW (Very Low Battery Warning) or turtle, driving down to a certain # of gids, driving down to a certain % SoC value ('13+ Leaf only)- I am running it down to VLBW
- How many temperature bars (left side) are shown at the start of the drive and during?- I am not sure
- What are your cold tire pressures?- I am not sure
- Can this experience be reliably repeated?
- After how many months of ownership did you first experience the range loss?- 14(after the accident).
- Outside air temps when this is happening?- 80-100
- How are you using the heater/AC system?- not frequently(I try to heat/cool while I am connected to the charger)
- Did you buy the vehicle new or used and when? (month and year is enough) What model year is it? -Used
- How many capacity bars have you lost? They're the thin bars on the very right of http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index. ... acity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. That one shows 3 capacity bars lost.- none
- Any changes to car from stock (different tires, bike rack, Texas cattle horns, roof rack, flags, etc)?- none
- (If you have a gid meter) Gid count at 100% charge? Date and outside temp when taken?

If unclear about some of the terminology/acronyms (e.g. GOM, LBW), see http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index. ... e=Glossary" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

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