DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 16013
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

its funny that WA was only state that did not set record highs for year, summer, spring, etc. but our weather is just as extreme as anyone elses.

last night had thunderstorms. in the past 8 days i have seen more lightning than my previous 24 years here combined. the weather has been WEIRD here too. last summer was great...for the 2½ weeks it was here. it was actually warmer last fall than it was last summer so if i count that, then we had about 6 weeks of "Summer" although we had to wait until the 3rd week of October to see it all!
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 25,047 mi, 92.12% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Stoaty
Posts: 4490
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

I think the fact that there is a point person now means Nissan is finally starting to take notice and realizes they have to find out how big the problem is and then decide what to do about it. This is a positive first step (hopefully there will be more steps once data is gathered). If the problem grows as big as I think it will over the next few months, Nissan will have two choices: stonewall and see their brand go down the drain, or come up with an equitable solution. The warranty (or lack thereof) won't matter in the court of public opinion. The best thing we can do now is to try to get every single person with capacity bar loss to open a case with Nissan, and document it on the Wiki. After that, the ball is in Nissan's court.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet
WetEV
Posts: 4791
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

vrwl wrote:
WetEV wrote:... or even AC in home garages.
The amount it would cost me to AC my garage would equal another car payment each month. However if Nissan wanted to pay for the additional AC costs to cool my garage each month, that would be another thought altogether.
Might be rather less than you expect, as the AC might only need to limit temperature in the garage to something like 35C or 100F or something fairly warm. Not standard AC to 72F.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red (Sold)
2019 eTron Blue
User avatar
vrwl
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 2:16 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2012
Leaf Number: 8597
Location: Northeastern PA/Poconos

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

WetEV wrote:Might be rather less than you expect, as the AC might only need to limit temperature in the garage to something like 35C or 100F or something fairly warm. Not standard AC to 72F.
It WOULD be nice to know the magic number... the number of degrees of ambient temperature where it's no longer safe for the battery, whether it's outside in the blazing sun, or outside in the shade, or in a garage. The manual says 120 degrees for 24 hours, but we're not hitting that for a lot of people, yet still the battery capacity losses. We need to know the magic number.
Vicki
2011 Silver SL-Mfg 8/11-Purch 6/12
34000 miles
LEAFfan
Posts: 4830
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 1855
Location: Phoenix Area

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Stoaty wrote:I think the fact that there is a point person now means Nissan is finally starting to take notice and realizes they have to find out how big the problem is and then decide what to do about it. This is a positive first step (hopefully there will be more steps once data is gathered). If the problem grows as big as I think it will over the next few months, Nissan will have two choices: stonewall and see their brand go down the drain, or come up with an equitable solution. The warranty (or lack thereof) won't matter in the court of public opinion. The best thing we can do now is to try to get every single person with capacity bar loss to open a case with Nissan, and document it on the Wiki. After that, the ball is in Nissan's court.
Since people have to take their car in for the yearly battery pack check, I believe Nissan already knew who had lost a bar and if not yet lost, they knew exactly the loss percentage. My Nissan tech told me that all of the ConsultII info is sent. to Nissan. So it's already known by Nissan how big this problem is. My guess is at least 100 cars in the Phoenix area have lost a bar and all 400 have lost at least 5%.
2013 LEAF SV Del. 2/28/13
2013 LEAF World Record for Most Miles Driven On One Charge-188 miles/8.8 m/kW h
2022 LEAF SL+ Del. 9/18/21
4.8 kW DC PV ($ .91/W fully installed)/ Dec., 2010
User avatar
DaveEV
Posts: 6252
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

FYI: I got a PM from Anne on Nissan's social support team asking to remove Jessica's direct # - apparently she is getting bombarded with calls. I have asked her for a replacement contact. In the mean time, I've also asked anyone who's posted Jessica's # to remove it and if someone needs it to PM them for it...
xtremeflyer
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:13 pm
Delivery Date: 03 Aug 2012
Location: Orange, CA

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

Isn't it a good thing that she's bombarded with calls? Don't they want to know about everyone that is having this issue?
drees wrote:FYI: I got a PM from Anne on Nissan's social support team asking to remove Jessica's direct # - apparently she is getting bombarded with calls. I have asked her for a replacement contact. In the mean time, I've also asked anyone who's posted Jessica's # to remove it and if someone needs it to PM them for it...
Stoaty
Posts: 4490
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:50 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 3871
Location: West Los Angeles

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

LEAFfan wrote:Since people have to take their car in for the yearly battery pack check, I believe Nissan already knew who had lost a bar and if not yet lost, they knew exactly the loss percentage. My Nissan tech told me that all of the ConsultII info is sent. to Nissan. So it's already known by Nissan how big this problem is.
Yes, but by having a point person they will find out how big a public relations problem they have. It is those multiple, loud, long (and public) complaints that might push Nissan to do something.
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
2013 Tesla Model S85 with 251 miles rated range at full charge
Leaf Spy Manual
Battery Aging Model Spreadsheet
LEAFfan
Posts: 4830
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 1855
Location: Phoenix Area

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

xtremeflyer wrote:Isn't it a good thing that she's bombarded with calls? Don't they want to know about everyone that is having this issue?
drees wrote:FYI: I got a PM from Anne on Nissan's social support team asking to remove Jessica's direct # - apparently she is getting bombarded with calls. I have asked her for a replacement contact. In the mean time, I've also asked anyone who's posted Jessica's # to remove it and if someone needs it to PM them for it...
+1! As long as they are calling her about their capacity loss, I don't see a problem. It will prove that there are many cars with this problem, not just five.
2013 LEAF SV Del. 2/28/13
2013 LEAF World Record for Most Miles Driven On One Charge-188 miles/8.8 m/kW h
2022 LEAF SL+ Del. 9/18/21
4.8 kW DC PV ($ .91/W fully installed)/ Dec., 2010
edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Early Capacity Losses-Was(Lost a bar...down to 11)

vrwl wrote:
WetEV wrote:Might be rather less than you expect, as the AC might only need to limit temperature in the garage to something like 35C or 100F or something fairly warm. Not standard AC to 72F.
It WOULD be nice to know the magic number... the number of degrees of ambient temperature where it's no longer safe for the battery, whether it's outside in the blazing sun, or outside in the shade, or in a garage. The manual says 120 degrees for 24 hours, but we're not hitting that for a lot of people, yet still the battery capacity losses. We need to know the magic number.
There probably is no "magic number".

There curve of additional deterioration due to battery heat is probably nonlinear, with much higher increased deterioration with a degree of temperature increase, from very high ambient temperatures. this may be why a "minor" increase of summer temperatures in the US Southwest, of ~5 F over historic norms, may have been a major factor in the LEAF lost capacity bar "epidemic" there.

The problem with any active BTM system, whether of only the battery itself, or the entire car, is that it is invariably required to draw energy during summer peak hours, when electricity is far more expensive.

With active cooling, you either need to cycle the battery while parked during mid-day, or provide a plug to use expensive peak grid power, during the daily Summer temperature peak. These costs are in addition to the significant production and maintenance costs of the active cooling system itself.

Nissan apparently believed passive management would be the better option, providing lower costs and more efficient operation overall. Whether Nissan was right or wrong, declining battery prices, battery designs with better high-heat resistance, and increasing grid peak power costs (all likely, IMO) should tend to make the passive option more cost-competitive in the future.

I also want to point out, again , that by extrapolating current of US Southwest temperature trends over the last two years, the same way many have extrapolated Battery bar disappearance on this thread, could also lead to the conclusion that much of this region would be largely uninhabitable by humans during them "expected" lifespan of a 2012 LEAF battery pack.

If I lived in Phoenix, I might be much more worried about my home's future resale value, than my LEAF's...
no condition is permanent

Return to “Problems / Troubleshooting”