cwerdna
Posts: 12008
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:58 pm

I'm assuming you already had the update at https://insideevs.com/news/338528/updat ... ng-issues/ installed or will have it.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2020/ ... 0-0001.pdf says that the 30 kWh pack was discontinued.

I would ignore the GOM, the silly numbers on the right side of the dash that claims "miles". Instead, use the % state of charge dash display or better yet, use Leaf Spy's smarter GOM where you can input/adjust your miles per kWh and threshold (e.g. LBW, VLBW, 5% or whatever).

Since you have Leaf Spy, I would look for signs of a bad cell/module similar to https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21700. At say 20ish to 40ish % SoC, I wouldn't expect your max delta of lowest to highest voltage to be above 30ish or 40ish mV. If it's above 100 mV, something is wrong.

You can also Google for site:mynissanleaf.com cvli. The voltages will likely be different for a 30 kWh pack vs. a 24. Hope the dealer does the CVLI test.

Since your profile says Livermore, it gets blazing hot there in the summer. And your sig says "Always charged to 100%", so neither of those help. For those not familiar w/Livermore, viewtopic.php?p=533224#p533224 can give one an idea of the temps on hot days in the summer (e.g. 107 F for a high in Livermore vs. 95 F in San Jose vs. 62 F in San Francisco). That's an extreme for microclimates. The unusual case would be 107 F in Livermore but 80ish to maybe even 90 F in SF. It rarely gets to 90 F in SF let alone much above 80ish..

Unless there's a bad cell or module, nothing will be done to help you (other than the above update) until you're down to 8 capacity bars.
LeafitToBeaver wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:29 pm
could not get corporate nor the local to the dealership to tell me what correlation there was between Bars and SOH or any other parameter. Does anyone possess that?
Of course not. Nissan has never (AFAIK) released any public documentation of anything that Leaf Spy renders. It's not their tool. One can only compare notes here about when people tend to lose another bar. See my comments and links at viewtopic.php?p=579357#p579357 for some historical background.

Good thing is that 30 kWh packs have 8 year/100K mile capacity warranties. Once you hit 8 bars, so far, it seems likely you'll receive a new 40 kWh pack.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6254
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:01 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:58 pm
I'm assuming you already had the update at https://insideevs.com/news/338528/updat ... ng-issues/ installed or will have it.

Good thing is that 30 kWh packs have 8 year/100K mile capacity warranties. Once you hit 8 bars, so far, it seems likely you'll receive a new 40 kWh pack.
This is such a good post, I only felt like pulling out the key lines
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

zachtsmith1
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:20 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Feb 2021
Leaf Number: 308770
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:08 am

Hi all, New to the Leaf life
I've done several searches and cant find a good place to post this question, but here seems to be the best option without starting another thread.
I bought a 2017 Leaf SV a few months ago with 12 bars. I made the mistake of not having leaf spy at the time (even tho I looked into this before purchasing)
leaf Spy is reporting a SOH of 76.82%, AHr of 61.06, and SOC of 97.2% after charging up to 100% as shown by dash.
My estimated range has never been over 98 miles after a full charge, and is usually around 92 miles on average (estimated) after full charge.
Car has 17k on it, bought it with 15k
Soon after I bought it when I finally got Leaf Spy the batt stats were: 61.53 AHr, 77.42% SOH and 95.6% SOC after full charge overnight.

Am I wrong in thinking I should have lost a Bar by now?

I spoke with the dealer that originally sold the car and seemed to have done all the service work prior to its trade in to a local Chevy dealership about whether or not the Firmware update had been performed. After giving them the VIN, they told me that they didn't see any updates that were applicable to my car so that meant if it needed to be done it had already been done.
I almost feel like I was just getting the run around.

Any help or insight is appreciated.

cwerdna
Posts: 12008
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:05 am

zachtsmith1 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:08 am
I bought a 2017 Leaf SV a few months ago with 12 bars. I made the mistake of not having leaf spy at the time (even tho I looked into this before purchasing)
leaf Spy is reporting a SOH of 76.82%, AHr of 61.06, and SOC of 97.2% after charging up to 100% as shown by dash.
My estimated range has never been over 98 miles after a full charge, and is usually around 92 miles on average (estimated) after full charge.
Car has 17k on it, bought it with 15k
Soon after I bought it when I finally got Leaf Spy the batt stats were: 61.53 AHr, 77.42% SOH and 95.6% SOC after full charge overnight.

Am I wrong in thinking I should have lost a Bar by now?
With an SOH reading like that you should be down at least 1 capacity bar by now. Are you looking at the correct bars?

You need to look at the thinnest bars all the way on the right, including the red ones. http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wp-c ... bars_s.jpg is an example of a fully charged 9 bar car (3 bar loser).

The guess--o-meter value (the silly thing that says 98 or 92 miles in your examples) is worthless.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

zachtsmith1
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:20 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Feb 2021
Leaf Number: 308770
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:27 am

Thanks for the reply
Was defiantly not looking at the right bars, I feel like an idiot.
That would indicate I am at 10 bars, not 12.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Mar 19, 2021 5:42 am

The range estimator is at least close to worthless. If you drive the same route consistently, in the same manner, then it can give some indication of capacity loss. Generally, though, you need LeafSpy.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 12008
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Mar 19, 2021 7:31 am

zachtsmith1 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 3:08 am
I bought a 2017 Leaf SV a few months ago with 12 bars. I made the mistake of not having leaf spy at the time (even tho I looked into this before purchasing)
leaf Spy is reporting a SOH of 76.82%, AHr of 61.06, and SOC of 97.2% after charging up to 100% as shown by dash.

...
I spoke with the dealer that originally sold the car and seemed to have done all the service work prior to its trade in to a local Chevy dealership about whether or not the Firmware update had been performed. After giving them the VIN, they told me that they didn't see any updates that were applicable to my car so that meant if it needed to be done it had already been done.
I almost feel like I was just getting the run around.

Any help or insight is appreciated.
BTW, the update you might need or already has been applied is at https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/ ... 9-9999.pdf (PC630, NTB18-039).

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

goldbrick
Posts: 1256
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:33 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Aug 2017
Leaf Number: 311806
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:32 am

zachtsmith1 wrote:
Fri Mar 19, 2021 4:27 am
Thanks for the reply
Was defiantly not looking at the right bars, I feel like an idiot.
That would indicate I am at 10 bars, not 12.
Don't feel bad, there are a lot of details about an EV that need to be learned and are different from an ICE car. Like acronyms :mrgreen:
On the bright side, you will probably loose the third bar this summer based on your stats. When you lose the 4th bar you will get a warranty replacement pack from Nissan. They are replacing the 30kWh packs as in your car with 40kWh packs since the 30kWh pack has been discontinued. In short, you are in a good spot as long as you can live with the reduced range until you get a new pack.

There is a lot of info on this site about warranty replacements, etc and I'd read up on that if I were you.

LeafitToBeaver
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Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:28 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2016
Leaf Number: 305742
Location: Livermore, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:10 pm

CWERDA wrote: I'm assuming you already had the update at https://insideevs.com/news/338528/updat ... ng-issues/ installed or will have it.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2020/ ... 0-0001.pdf says that the 30 kWh pack was discontinued.
I will def check out those links and get back to you with a deeper response. Yes, it can get hot out here in Livermore but the batteries never seemed to mind the heat as far as the temp reading on the gage.... another worthless metric, perhaps?

I did find the distance gage to be helpful when I calibrated it over years of driving the same route with both my 2013 model and this ‘16 model..... speed and distance being roughly the same. I have had all updates performed on the car as well as recalls.

Interestingly, the Dublin Nissan branch here... service manager... reached out to me this past week and said he had contacted the “field Rep” for help and he offered several ideas for troubleshooting..... they took the car last Thursday and asked to keep it until maybe this Tuesday..... they were actually running the vehicle while on a rack and testing each battery for voltage.... I assume drop vs other batteries. They could not tell me exactly as only the specific, head technician seems to know anything about the EVs.

They seem to be trying hard to see if there is an actual fault and replace the battery pack.... for that I am thankful.... believe it when I see it. But it’s better than blowing me off. I will chock this up to social media and surveys pushing dealerships into working harder to help the customer.

Thanks for the info on the discontinued 30kW packs.... if they do RnR the pack then I hope it’s a new and not refurbished 40kW pack. It would be nice to be able to drive to SF and back w/o a charge or to only charge to 80% most days... or not even charge for several days... now that I’m retired this car is our main wheels and the ICE sits in the driveway except for long hauls.
1st Leaf 2013 Lease
2nd Leaf 2016 SV 30 kWh Lease/Purchase
46,760 Miles 9 Bars
AHr=53.47 SOH=67.27 Hx=35.32
Always charged to 100%
8 QC 3070 L1/L2s LeafSpy

cwerdna
Posts: 12008
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:44 pm

LeafitToBeaver wrote:
Sun Mar 21, 2021 9:10 pm
CWERDA wrote: I'm assuming you already had the update at https://insideevs.com/news/338528/updat ... ng-issues/ installed or will have it.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2020/ ... 0-0001.pdf says that the 30 kWh pack was discontinued.
I will def check out those links and get back to you with a deeper response. Yes, it can get hot out here in Livermore but the batteries never seemed to mind the heat as far as the temp reading on the gage.... another worthless metric, perhaps?
...
Thanks for the info on the discontinued 30kW packs.... if they do RnR the pack then I hope it’s a new and not refurbished 40kW pack. It would be nice to be able to drive to SF and back w/o a charge or to only charge to 80% most days... or not even charge for several days... now that I’m retired this car is our main wheels and the ICE sits in the driveway except for long hauls.
The temp bars are crap. I need to check the service manual to confirm viewtopic.php?p=528581#p528581. Hmm, a quick glance at some of the values at http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki/battery-d1/ under Battery Temperature Gauge vs. page MWI-20 of the '15 Leaf service manual (I don't have a newer one) looks actually about right. There's also some internal adjustment of the bar vs. temp mapping based upon battery degradation.

Use Leaf Spy to see the actual battery temps.

Here's an example of a Phoenician Leaf with the same build month as mine of 24 kWh Leaf as mine: viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995. He lost his 4th bar 8/23/2016 at 31.4K miles. From the above tables, how do you think is battery temp bars would look?

I'm still today at 11 bars (probably 10 soon) w/over 68K miles in a milder (but not mild) climate. viewtopic.php?p=551301#p551301 (4 months newer than mine) is in a super mild climate. That would be impossible in my city.

Battery capacity and energy are measured in kWh, not "kW".

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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