GaleHawkins
Posts: 480
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:25 pm

fergy126 wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:29 pm
fergy126 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:00 pm
fergy126 wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:35 pm


Warranty replacement was approved, waiting on the battery to arrive at the dealership. I was told it would arrive in the middle of next week.
Received a call today that "batteries are on back-order" and would receive a shipment update around the 30th of December. The wait continues.

Meanwhile with the cold temps (35-45 degF) have made completing my commute (45 mi) a struggle, I think I will have to drive my ICE vehicle until the replacement is completed.
My warranty replacement was completed last Wednesday (12/23). I received a 40kwh battery with a SOH of 99 and 12 bars. I haven't charged to 100% yet haven't needed the extra range. VERY happy with the new life of the vehicle. The invoice was a little above $13,000 they wouldn't give me a copy but glad it was $0 out of pocket for me. Now I need to determine the proper techniques to maintaing the life of the new battery.
That's great news and congratulations. We bought our 2016 Leaf SL showing 22K miles / 9 bars Oct 2019. 5 weeks later at 24K miles we lost bar #4. We trailered and dropped off the car 30 Dec 2019 and drove it home 12 Feb 2020.

SOH on pick-up was 99.87% and lost 0.01% daily for 5 months. Taking the wife to work is two 30 mile trips daily so I started charging to 100% after each 30 trip to reduce max battery temperature rise. SOH dropped down to 0.01% every 3 days. I tried to never charge it until battery temperature was no greater than 10 F degrees over air temperature. Putting it on the charger at 11pm and leaving at 6am was typical.

SOH was 96.07% and SOC was at 89% when it was totaled first of Nov 2020 with 12K miles on the new 40 kWh pack.

A few weeks later we got the bent sheet metal and crushed condenser/radiator removed and took it for a 2 mile test at freeway speed to make sure it drove and handled well before buying a parts car. We got a parts car last week. SOH has been at 96.05% for the last month. We observed leaving the 12v battery was leading to SOH decline. Charging often and to 100% is our plan until Leaf Spy data calls for a charging protocol change.

Use Leaf Spy data to find the charging protocol that works best with your climate and usage.

Note lithium plating is most aggressive early on so as it slows so may the SOH rate of decline.

outerspaceguy
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:46 pm
Delivery Date: 19 Jul 2017
Leaf Number: 311339
Location: Chandler, AZ

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:31 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:03 pm
The battery report should be fine. There is no warranty law against leaving the car at 100% charge, only against getting it too hot.
I agree. Temperature (either overly cold or overly warm) is really the big enemy. Additionally, if nissan wanted you to only charge to 80%, they would have given you a way to enable that ability. People very often charge overnight, most chargers (even level 2 chargers) are dumb, and thus they provide electrons so long as the car wants more.

snapple070
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Jan 24, 2020 12:07 pm
Delivery Date: 07 Jan 2020
Leaf Number: 302449

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:41 pm

Just wanted to follow up on my post from a few months back. I took my car into one of the Nissan Dealers near me for the 45,000 mile check up (I live in the Salt Lake City, Utah area). I asked about doing the 'firmware upgrade' for the range and the service guy seems completely lost to what I was talking about. I explained what it was and that my SOH seems low (currently at 78.64%). He still seemed confused but said they'd do a battery inspection.

I also asked them to look into the fact that the Nissan Connect EV & Services app works maybe 20% of the time. I know that most people say it's crap but the guy I bought the car from said he used it all the time and I figured since I was there I should at least have them look into it. He didn't seem as confused by this request but I wonder if I gave the guy more than he could handle.

Well, anyway long story short they said they couldn't find anything wrong with the Connect app and said the only thing they could think of that might help the problem would be to replace the entire stereo system. The part starting at $2,000 not including labor. Which even he thought was too much money to spend. So I guess I'll just have to continue having the app only work once every 2 months.

But more annoyingly is I asked over the phone and when I went to pick up the car numerous times if they did the firmware upgrade and he seemed confused about what I was talking about every time. He said they did a "battery inspection" (which they charged me $80 for) and "everything is up to date and the battery looks great for the mileage. There are 11 bars left. We'd only be concerned if you had 8 bars left." The printed report had no information about results for a battery test or if a test was even performed. They basically looked at the dashboard and told me how many bars were there. Which I didn't need to pay $80 to figure out. I can also count the bars remaining on the dash.

So, I guess I'm wondering if I should start using another dealership? There are a fair amount of Leafs on the roads in SLC so I figured they'd be pretty knowledgeable but it seemed like this guy at least didn't know anything. Also, I still don't know if the firmware update has ever been performed. Is 11 bars at 78.64% accurate? When does the second bar generally drop?

Thanks to all.

outerspaceguy
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:46 pm
Delivery Date: 19 Jul 2017
Leaf Number: 311339
Location: Chandler, AZ

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:16 pm

snapple070 wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:41 pm
Also, I still don't know if the firmware update has ever been performed.

this was the original text I got from nissan:

Vehicle Identification Number (VIN): xxxxxxxxx

Nissan is committed to providing the highest levels of product safety, quality and customer satisfaction. With that in mind, we want to bring to your attention important information regarding a voluntary service campaign being conducted by Nissan to reprogram the 30 kWh Lithium-ion Battery Controller (LBC) on your Nissan LEAF vehicle.

REASON FOR SERVICE CAMPAIGN

The software used by the LBC miscalculates the driving range and the battery’s capacity level gauge, resulting in capacity and range being displayed lower than the actual amount. Nissan is releasing new software to customers to correct these parameters and provide an accurate representation of range and capacity.

WHAT NISSAN WILL DO

To ensure your continued satisfaction and confidence in your car, your Nissan dealer will reprogram the 30 kWh LBC with updated software to correct the calculation for the driving range and Lithium-ion battery capacity gauge indicators. This procedure will be performed at no cost to you for parts and labor. Additionally, this service should take less than one (1) hour to complete, but your Nissan dealer may require your vehicle for a longer period of time based upon their work schedule.

WHAT YOU SHOULD DO

Nissan encourages you to contact your LEAF certified Nissan dealer at your earliest convenience in order to arrange your appointment. To minimize any inconvenience to you, it is important that you have an appointment before bringing your vehicle to the dealer for service. Please bring this notice with you to your service appointment. Detailed instructions have been sent to your Nissan dealer.

If you have additional questions you may contact the Nissan LEAF Call Center: Nissan North America, Inc., P.O. Box 685003, Franklin, TN 37068-5003. The toll free number is 1-877-NO-GAS-EV (1-877-664-2738): Option 4.

Thank you for providing us an opportunity to ensure ongoing satisfaction with your Nissan LEAF. We are sorry for any inconvenience this may cause you.

snapple070 wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:41 pm

Is 11 bars at 78.64% accurate? When does the second bar generally drop?
I believe the first bar counts basically as 2 bars. So that is 15%. So you lose the first bar around 85% capacity left. Then it is like 7-8% for every additional capacity bar.

Thus, you might be close to losing your second bar.

In Arizona, I seem to be losing one bar a year, basically. Ive heard that the bar loss rate slows down as the car gets older. Your results may vary.
Last edited by outerspaceguy on Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cwerdna
Posts: 12006
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:18 pm

snapple070 wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:41 pm
So, I guess I'm wondering if I should start using another dealership? There are a fair amount of Leafs on the roads in SLC so I figured they'd be pretty knowledgeable but it seemed like this guy at least didn't know anything. Also, I still don't know if the firmware update has ever been performed.
Yes. Your dealer sounds incompetent.

Regarding the firmware upgrade for 30 kWh cars, See below:
https://insideevs.com/news/338528/updat ... ng-issues/
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/ ... 9-9999.pdf
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/ ... 3-9999.pdf

If service has a question, show them the latter two.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
Posts: 12006
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:23 pm

outerspaceguy wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:31 pm
LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:03 pm
The battery report should be fine. There is no warranty law against leaving the car at 100% charge, only against getting it too hot.
I agree. Temperature (either overly cold or overly warm) is really the big enemy. Additionally, if nissan wanted you to only charge to 80%, they would have given you a way to enable that ability. People very often charge overnight, most chargers (even level 2 chargers) are dumb, and thus they provide electrons so long as the car wants more.
'11 to '13 US market Leafs DID have an 80% limiter. It was removed on '14+ US market Leafs and remained around a bit longer in some other markets.

https://insideevs.com/news/317213/2013- ... gs-system/
https://insideevs.com/news/320736/2014- ... -84-miles/

It sure seems likely that Nissan removed it to make the Leaf look more competitive vs. other sub-100 mile EPA range EVs in/around model year '14 since most of them didn't have any sort of limiters nor would they get hit by the penalty. 75 miles looked near bottom of the barrel in model year '14 while 84 miles looked was in the top 1/3rd or so. Supposedly, the gen 2 (2012 to 2014) Rav4 EV also got hit by the 80/100 averaging penalty since it had 2 charge fullness settings.

viewtopic.php?t=20629 is a guy in Ireland with a '15 Leaf which has the 80% limiter. Since it's not the US, they don't use EPA tests there.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

RaleighEV
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:15 am
Delivery Date: 08 Feb 2014
Leaf Number: 331657
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Thu Dec 31, 2020 11:17 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:03 pm
The battery report should be fine. There is no warranty law against leaving the car at 100% charge, only against getting it too hot.
Thanks LeftyBiker. I got the report today and got all stars and doing fine. They quoted me $59 when I made the appointment then wanted $169 when I got there today. I was clear when I made the appointment that it was a Leaf and I wanted the battery report for the battery warranty. Not anything to do with 12volt battery. After some discussion they said they would do it for $99. I was there and didn’t feel like fighting more so told them go ahead. When I picked it up the said they honored the $59. But there was a $15 misc. caharge. Not worth fighting over and about what others seem to pay.

Anyway I’ll keep using the car as designed and maybe start quick charging occasionaly.
'17 silver Leaf SV w/premium package (own)
'14 red Leaf SV w/premium package (lease over, car returned. Great car.)

CaptLarry
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:21 pm
Delivery Date: 31 Dec 2020
Leaf Number: 314975

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:46 pm

Nissan Dealer In Santa Rosa Cal, reprogrammed my car Without My Permission !
I was NOT happy about this. since I have experineced 24% reduction in SOH in only 10K miles
and lost one bar.. which magically was erased... along with 15% of the SOH degradatoin. POOF !

I think this is a scam.. and I want to know if anybody has had this "upgrade" reversed ?

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 16922
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sat Jan 02, 2021 4:17 pm

There is no point in trying to get it undone, because Nissan requires that it have been done before they will replace a 30kwh pack under warranty. Don't worry, though: if you have a defective pack it will still lose capacity bars fast enough to easily get a warranty replacement - the warranty is 8 years. If the bars don't start dropping, then you have a good pack.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GaleHawkins
Posts: 480
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: 2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:51 am

CaptLarry wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 2:46 pm
Nissan Dealer In Santa Rosa Cal, reprogrammed my car Without My Permission !
I was NOT happy about this. since I have experineced 24% reduction in SOH in only 10K miles
and lost one bar.. which magically was erased... along with 15% of the SOH degradatoin. POOF !

I think this is a scam.. and I want to know if anybody has had this "upgrade" reversed ?
As LeftieBiker pointed they did you a favor to get that required software update that computes the SOC more accurately per Nissan. Our 2016 SL lost the 4th bar at 24K miles in 2019 and the update had been applied around 18K. I have not seen a date for the Leaf to be discontinued in the 40 kWh version so they should keep making that battery until that day comes.

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