2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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I'm assuming you already had the update at https://insideevs.com/news/338528/update-nissan-has-software-fix-for-2016-17-leaf-30-kwh-battery-reporting-issues/ installed or will have it.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2020/MC-10171230-0001.pdf says that the 30 kWh pack was discontinued.

I would ignore the GOM, the silly numbers on the right side of the dash that claims "miles". Instead, use the % state of charge dash display or better yet, use Leaf Spy's smarter GOM where you can input/adjust your miles per kWh and threshold (e.g. LBW, VLBW, 5% or whatever).

Since you have Leaf Spy, I would look for signs of a bad cell/module similar to https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21700. At say 20ish to 40ish % SoC, I wouldn't expect your max delta of lowest to highest voltage to be above 30ish or 40ish mV. If it's above 100 mV, something is wrong.

You can also Google for site:mynissanleaf.com cvli. The voltages will likely be different for a 30 kWh pack vs. a 24. Hope the dealer does the CVLI test.

Since your profile says Livermore, it gets blazing hot there in the summer. And your sig says "Always charged to 100%", so neither of those help. For those not familiar w/Livermore, https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=533224#p533224 can give one an idea of the temps on hot days in the summer (e.g. 107 F for a high in Livermore vs. 95 F in San Jose vs. 62 F in San Francisco). That's an extreme for microclimates. The unusual case would be 107 F in Livermore but 80ish to maybe even 90 F in SF. It rarely gets to 90 F in SF let alone much above 80ish..

Unless there's a bad cell or module, nothing will be done to help you (other than the above update) until you're down to 8 capacity bars.

LeafitToBeaver said:
could not get corporate nor the local to the dealership to tell me what correlation there was between Bars and SOH or any other parameter. Does anyone possess that?
Of course not. Nissan has never (AFAIK) released any public documentation of anything that Leaf Spy renders. It's not their tool. One can only compare notes here about when people tend to lose another bar. See my comments and links at https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=579357#p579357 for some historical background.

Good thing is that 30 kWh packs have 8 year/100K mile capacity warranties. Once you hit 8 bars, so far, it seems likely you'll receive a new 40 kWh pack.
 
cwerdna said:
I'm assuming you already had the update at https://insideevs.com/news/338528/update-nissan-has-software-fix-for-2016-17-leaf-30-kwh-battery-reporting-issues/ installed or will have it.

Good thing is that 30 kWh packs have 8 year/100K mile capacity warranties. Once you hit 8 bars, so far, it seems likely you'll receive a new 40 kWh pack.
This is such a good post, I only felt like pulling out the key lines
 
Hi all, New to the Leaf life
I've done several searches and cant find a good place to post this question, but here seems to be the best option without starting another thread.
I bought a 2017 Leaf SV a few months ago with 12 bars. I made the mistake of not having leaf spy at the time (even tho I looked into this before purchasing)
leaf Spy is reporting a SOH of 76.82%, AHr of 61.06, and SOC of 97.2% after charging up to 100% as shown by dash.
My estimated range has never been over 98 miles after a full charge, and is usually around 92 miles on average (estimated) after full charge.
Car has 17k on it, bought it with 15k
Soon after I bought it when I finally got Leaf Spy the batt stats were: 61.53 AHr, 77.42% SOH and 95.6% SOC after full charge overnight.

Am I wrong in thinking I should have lost a Bar by now?

I spoke with the dealer that originally sold the car and seemed to have done all the service work prior to its trade in to a local Chevy dealership about whether or not the Firmware update had been performed. After giving them the VIN, they told me that they didn't see any updates that were applicable to my car so that meant if it needed to be done it had already been done.
I almost feel like I was just getting the run around.

Any help or insight is appreciated.
 
zachtsmith1 said:
I bought a 2017 Leaf SV a few months ago with 12 bars. I made the mistake of not having leaf spy at the time (even tho I looked into this before purchasing)
leaf Spy is reporting a SOH of 76.82%, AHr of 61.06, and SOC of 97.2% after charging up to 100% as shown by dash.
My estimated range has never been over 98 miles after a full charge, and is usually around 92 miles on average (estimated) after full charge.
Car has 17k on it, bought it with 15k
Soon after I bought it when I finally got Leaf Spy the batt stats were: 61.53 AHr, 77.42% SOH and 95.6% SOC after full charge overnight.

Am I wrong in thinking I should have lost a Bar by now?
With an SOH reading like that you should be down at least 1 capacity bar by now. Are you looking at the correct bars?

You need to look at the thinnest bars all the way on the right, including the red ones. http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Scott_3_bars_s.jpg is an example of a fully charged 9 bar car (3 bar loser).

The guess--o-meter value (the silly thing that says 98 or 92 miles in your examples) is worthless.
 
The range estimator is at least close to worthless. If you drive the same route consistently, in the same manner, then it can give some indication of capacity loss. Generally, though, you need LeafSpy.
 
zachtsmith1 said:
I bought a 2017 Leaf SV a few months ago with 12 bars. I made the mistake of not having leaf spy at the time (even tho I looked into this before purchasing)
leaf Spy is reporting a SOH of 76.82%, AHr of 61.06, and SOC of 97.2% after charging up to 100% as shown by dash.

...
I spoke with the dealer that originally sold the car and seemed to have done all the service work prior to its trade in to a local Chevy dealership about whether or not the Firmware update had been performed. After giving them the VIN, they told me that they didn't see any updates that were applicable to my car so that meant if it needed to be done it had already been done.
I almost feel like I was just getting the run around.

Any help or insight is appreciated.
BTW, the update you might need or already has been applied is at https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10143139-9999.pdf (PC630, NTB18-039).
 
zachtsmith1 said:
Thanks for the reply
Was defiantly not looking at the right bars, I feel like an idiot.
That would indicate I am at 10 bars, not 12.

Don't feel bad, there are a lot of details about an EV that need to be learned and are different from an ICE car. Like acronyms :mrgreen:
On the bright side, you will probably loose the third bar this summer based on your stats. When you lose the 4th bar you will get a warranty replacement pack from Nissan. They are replacing the 30kWh packs as in your car with 40kWh packs since the 30kWh pack has been discontinued. In short, you are in a good spot as long as you can live with the reduced range until you get a new pack.

There is a lot of info on this site about warranty replacements, etc and I'd read up on that if I were you.
 
CWERDA wrote: I'm assuming you already had the update at https://insideevs.com/news/338528/updat ... ng-issues/ installed or will have it.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2020/ ... 0-0001.pdf says that the 30 kWh pack was discontinued.

I will def check out those links and get back to you with a deeper response. Yes, it can get hot out here in Livermore but the batteries never seemed to mind the heat as far as the temp reading on the gage.... another worthless metric, perhaps?

I did find the distance gage to be helpful when I calibrated it over years of driving the same route with both my 2013 model and this ‘16 model..... speed and distance being roughly the same. I have had all updates performed on the car as well as recalls.

Interestingly, the Dublin Nissan branch here... service manager... reached out to me this past week and said he had contacted the “field Rep” for help and he offered several ideas for troubleshooting..... they took the car last Thursday and asked to keep it until maybe this Tuesday..... they were actually running the vehicle while on a rack and testing each battery for voltage.... I assume drop vs other batteries. They could not tell me exactly as only the specific, head technician seems to know anything about the EVs.

They seem to be trying hard to see if there is an actual fault and replace the battery pack.... for that I am thankful.... believe it when I see it. But it’s better than blowing me off. I will chock this up to social media and surveys pushing dealerships into working harder to help the customer.

Thanks for the info on the discontinued 30kW packs.... if they do RnR the pack then I hope it’s a new and not refurbished 40kW pack. It would be nice to be able to drive to SF and back w/o a charge or to only charge to 80% most days... or not even charge for several days... now that I’m retired this car is our main wheels and the ICE sits in the driveway except for long hauls.
 
LeafitToBeaver said:
CWERDA wrote: I'm assuming you already had the update at https://insideevs.com/news/338528/updat ... ng-issues/ installed or will have it.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2020/ ... 0-0001.pdf says that the 30 kWh pack was discontinued.

I will def check out those links and get back to you with a deeper response. Yes, it can get hot out here in Livermore but the batteries never seemed to mind the heat as far as the temp reading on the gage.... another worthless metric, perhaps?
...
Thanks for the info on the discontinued 30kW packs.... if they do RnR the pack then I hope it’s a new and not refurbished 40kW pack. It would be nice to be able to drive to SF and back w/o a charge or to only charge to 80% most days... or not even charge for several days... now that I’m retired this car is our main wheels and the ICE sits in the driveway except for long hauls.
The temp bars are crap. I need to check the service manual to confirm https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=528581#p528581. Hmm, a quick glance at some of the values at http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki/battery-d1/ under Battery Temperature Gauge vs. page MWI-20 of the '15 Leaf service manual (I don't have a newer one) looks actually about right. There's also some internal adjustment of the bar vs. temp mapping based upon battery degradation.

Use Leaf Spy to see the actual battery temps.

Here's an example of a Phoenician Leaf with the same build month as mine of 24 kWh Leaf as mine: https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995. He lost his 4th bar 8/23/2016 at 31.4K miles. From the above tables, how do you think is battery temp bars would look?

I'm still today at 11 bars (probably 10 soon) w/over 68K miles in a milder (but not mild) climate. https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=551301#p551301 (4 months newer than mine) is in a super mild climate. That would be impossible in my city.

Battery capacity and energy are measured in kWh, not "kW".
 
Apr 1, 2021 update. 281 GID's, SOH=77.43%, Hx=50.33%. 856134 total miles, 41205 miles on new battery, 145 L3 total, 31 on new battery, 1728 total, 854 on new battery. I only drove about 700 miles last month and the stats have barely changed. Still waiting for the next bar to drop. This battery is holding up much better than the first one. I have nearly as many miles on this battery as I did on the first one and I still have about 24 KWH of battery left. At this rate, I'll hit 100,000 miles just before the battery hits the warranty limit. I just found out that the $2000 California CVRP may be ending soon. If so, do I wait and see if they reinstate the Federal rebate or buy now to capture the State rebate before it expires? The Leaf will do for now but It probably won't work for me if Covid restrictions are lifted and we get back to normal. If the battery was replaced under warranty, I could get a couple of more years out of it. If it got the 40 KWH battery as a replacement, I could drive it for as much as 4 more years. With out a warranty replacement though, I'll need a new car by next year at the latest and I might be better off just to bite the bullet now and buy a new car.
 
May 1, 2021 update. 281 GID's, SOH=77.39%, Hx=50.28%. 86870 total miles, 41941 miles on new battery, 145 L3 total, 31 on new battery, 1752 total, 878 on new battery. Finally dropped the second bar. At this rate, i'll hit the third bar at about 97000 mi. So probably no third battery for me. Seems to me that I'll just have to wait for Biden's EV rebate plan to come through and buy a new car then. Tesla is still in the lead but I should have a lot more options by next year. Neither the Volkswagen nor the Mustang seem to be a good fit for me and the M3 SR+ costs less for about the same range and better software. A Model Y is a bit more appealing due to the hatchback and extended range but is more expensive. If I buy the extended range version, Y beats 3 due to the hatchback and only a few thousand dollars more in cost.
 
johnlocke said:
A Model Y is a bit more appealing due to the hatchback and extended range but is more expensive. If I buy the extended range version, Y beats 3 due to the hatchback and only a few thousand dollars more in cost.
My plan to buy a Model Y when they hit 400 mile range was put into doubt after a test drive. due to poor rear visibility. I hope it gets redesigned.
 
SageBrush said:
johnlocke said:
A Model Y is a bit more appealing due to the hatchback and extended range but is more expensive. If I buy the extended range version, Y beats 3 due to the hatchback and only a few thousand dollars more in cost.
My plan to buy a Model Y when they hit 400 mile range was put into doubt after a test drive. due to poor rear visibility. I hope it gets redesigned.

rear window is indeed small, but not an issue when backing up (due to rear-view camera) - unless you're worried about tree branches? But then don't all new vehicles have rather small rear windows now?
 
^^^ Haven't sat in or driven a Model Y, but I imagine it's due to the shallow slope of the rear hatch window, which narrows the effective height of the vertical aperture, combined with rear seat headrests which block much of the bottom part of the view.

It's a decision made for aero or looks. I can't stand cars with crappy rear views for those reasons. Some like the Prius try to make it better by providing a small lower vertical window section below a frame. I don't find those improve things much, plus it defeats the purpose of a cargo cover, as people can just look into the cargo area from the back. Plus, the cargo area is exposed to more direct sunlight.

I sat in a gen 2 Volt and I don't recall the rear vis being too bad. OTOH, the Ionic had absolutely the worst rear vis of any car I've ever tried, like looking down a long low mine tunnel with most of the bottom two thirds filled with ore cars. Absolutely unacceptable to me. Cameras are great, but I don't want to be dependent on them.

Personally, I want the rear window to be sloped at least 45 deg., and preferably 60+. It's not as aerodynamic, but it improves the rear view as well as the usable vertical cargo height, which may allow you to choose a shorter, lighter car.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
SageBrush said:
johnlocke said:
A Model Y is a bit more appealing due to the hatchback and extended range but is more expensive. If I buy the extended range version, Y beats 3 due to the hatchback and only a few thousand dollars more in cost.
My plan to buy a Model Y when they hit 400 mile range was put into doubt after a test drive. due to poor rear visibility. I hope it gets redesigned.

rear window is indeed small, but not an issue when backing up (due to rear-view camera) - unless you're worried about tree branches? But then don't all new vehicles have rather small rear windows now?

Backing up is not a problem - the front display is wonderful.
My problem is more a case of wanting to know what is behind me when I am driving, and the view then is restricted and *feels* inadequate. I've tried leaving the front display on rear-view in my Model 3 and it is an inferior solution for two reasons: the constant movement on the screen is a distraction; and second, the screen cannot be used for other purposes.

I'm hoping that Tesla implements rear and side camera displays on the front screen when the turning signal is on. That would certainly help.
 
SageBrush said:
I'm hoping that Tesla implements rear and side camera displays on the front screen when the turning signal is on. That would certainly help.
I'm hoping they add that, too. It was really nice when they added (via OTA) the side camera displays to the screen when in reverse.
 
johnlocke said:
May 1, 2021 update. 281 GID's, SOH=77.39%, Hx=50.28%. 86870 total miles, 41941 miles on new battery, 145 L3 total, 31 on new battery, 1752 total, 878 on new battery. Finally dropped the second bar. At this rate, i'll hit the third bar at about 97000 mi. So probably no third battery for me. Seems to me that I'll just have to wait for Biden's EV rebate plan to come through and buy a new car then. Tesla is still in the lead but I should have a lot more options by next year. Neither the Volkswagen nor the Mustang seem to be a good fit for me and the M3 SR+ costs less for about the same range and better software. A Model Y is a bit more appealing due to the hatchback and extended range but is more expensive. If I buy the extended range version, Y beats 3 due to the hatchback and only a few thousand dollars more in cost.

Thanks for the update. A few weeks ago I got to test drive a Model Y in Nashville TN in rush hour traffic. Due to my Ankylosing Spondylitis I could not even get in a Model 3. I only went to see if I could fit in a Tesla but they are pushy about going for a test drive. Hopefully our 2016 SL with 12K miles on the new 40 KWA battery will last until the $25K??? Tesla is out for a test drive.
 
GaleHawkins said:
johnlocke said:
May 1, 2021 update. 281 GID's, SOH=77.39%, Hx=50.28%. 86870 total miles, 41941 miles on new battery, 145 L3 total, 31 on new battery, 1752 total, 878 on new battery. Finally dropped the second bar. At this rate, i'll hit the third bar at about 97000 mi. So probably no third battery for me. Seems to me that I'll just have to wait for Biden's EV rebate plan to come through and buy a new car then. Tesla is still in the lead but I should have a lot more options by next year. Neither the Volkswagen nor the Mustang seem to be a good fit for me and the M3 SR+ costs less for about the same range and better software. A Model Y is a bit more appealing due to the hatchback and extended range but is more expensive. If I buy the extended range version, Y beats 3 due to the hatchback and only a few thousand dollars more in cost.

Thanks for the update. A few weeks ago I got to test drive a Model Y in Nashville TN in rush hour traffic. Due to my Ankylosing Spondylitis I could not even get in a Model 3. I only went to see if I could fit in a Tesla but they are pushy about going for a test drive. Hopefully our 2016 SL with 12K miles on the new 40 KWA battery will last until the $25K??? Tesla is out for a test drive.

The $25K Tesla might end up being a compact hatchback (based on sketches a year ago), so not sure if your Ankylosing Spondylitis would factor against it?

Edit: There's also an "easy entry" driver profile in Tesla's that facilitates getting into the driver seat. You have to click the checkbox in your driver profile to enable that feature. It lowers the seat and tilts the seat back.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Edit: There's also an "easy entry" driver profile in Tesla's that facilitates getting into the driver seat. You have to click the checkbox in your driver profile to enable that feature. It lowers the seat and tilts the seat back.
It's an awesome feature
 
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