thankyouOB
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Re: Stuck behind a Leaf in HOV lane

Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:16 pm

gbarry42 wrote:From all appearances, in Southern CA, the HOV lane is considered to be a separate roadway. At least that's the theory. If they would actually enforce this little idea I believe they could retire the budget deficit.
that is how the CHP officer described it to me.
if there are two HOV lanes, you can move to the one on the right to let folks pass; like on the 110 freeway.
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darelldd
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Re: Stuck behind a Leaf in HOV lane

Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:51 pm

There are three things being discussed here, and they need to be kept separate.

One is the law. Then we have courtesy and safety.

I'll start with safety just to get it out of the way. How many times will we hear that there's some huge risk of being rear-ended when driving the speed limit in the fast lane? Of course there are no statistics to support this. None. But we sure keep hearing it, don't we? On the contrary, there is ample evidence that shows slower vehicle speed is almost always safer for everybody. You want everybody safer? Don't bitch at the folks doing the speed limit "impeding" the speeders. Bitch at the speeders. "Feeling" that slower drivers are making everybody less safe is not the same as *actually* making everybody less safe. Why is it that the folks who wish to speed are the most vocal about the dire safety consequences of the people driving at or below the speed limit?

And that brings us to courtesy. If you want everybody to be happy with their driving, and you don't care about safety or conservation of resources, or pollution - then the uncontested action is to always make sure you're not impeding anybody no matter what. Everybody is at least superficially happy if they can travel at whatever speed they wish. And if all else is equal, I suppose a case can be made that a happy driver is safer to be around tha a pissed-off driver.

And finally the law. It never fails to amaze me to hear what people think the driving laws are. They were told something by a police officer. They heard it in traffic school. Somebody they know got a ticket for it. NONE of this determines what's legal. The only thing that does is the vehicle code for the state you're in. There's no mystery. This is a public document that anybody can purchase (and now browse online in most cases). The traffic laws are ALL there. Yes, there is a bit of ambiguity in some edge cases - and those are decided in the courts. But all the stuff being discussed here - there's no gray area. It is all clearly spelled out in the VC's that I've seen. Why bother taking a guess at it? Why bother proving ignorance by claiming knowledge of the law without actually knowing the VC reference? Here's a huge hint for you: No police officer knows the entire VC. None of them. It is a bit like knowing the dictionary. They tend to know their favorite and most often cited sections. But they can't know the entire thing. A mere civilian can know more about the *relevant* section he may be interested in than does the police officer that is citing him. Being given a ticket for something does NOT make that action illegal. It only means that the police officer thinks it is. But he doesn't get to make that call. The court does. The police officer only gets to ruin your day and force you to show up and prove that he has misinterpreted the law.

If you want to test this theory re. how much of the VC that a given officer knows, just try asking one about legal bicycle operation on a public road. That one is usually good for a laugh. I carry the relevant VC section on my bicycle with me because I have yet to meet an officer that knows it. They all THINK they know it. And every one has it wrong so far.

But I don't mean to digress. We're talking about the freedom to speed in a car. The *right* to speed in a car. And I can't wait for somebody (anybody!) to show me a VC reference that shows driving at anything under the posted *maximum* speed limit is illegal for the sole reason that they aren't driving AT the posted *maximum* speed limit. From some of these comments, you'd think that the only way to legally drive a car on a public road is to always drive at EXACTLY the posted speed limit. I mean it is obvious that you shouldn't exceed that... but apparently some folks feel you also should never drive below it. Man, that's a hard needle to thread at all times!

And then there are those who (seriously) contend that the posted limit is a minimum!
Last edited by darelldd on Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Email me: Domain is gmail.com. Name is darelldd@. Really. I hate PM.
2011 while SL with Chademo... new to me in 2015.

TNleaf
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:45 am
Delivery Date: 27 Jul 2011
Leaf Number: 5818

Re: Stuck behind a Leaf in HOV lane

Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:07 pm

darelldd wrote:There are three things being discussed here, and they need to be kept separate.

One is the law. Then we have courtesy and safety.

I'll start with safetey just to get it out of the way. How many times will we hear that there's some huge risk of being rear-ended when driving the speed limit in the fast lane? Of course there are no statistics to support this. None. But we sure keep hearing it, don't we? On the contrary, there is ample evidence that shows slower vehicle speed is almost always safer for everybody. You want everybody safer? Don't bitch at the folks doing the speed limit "impeding" the speeders. Bitch at the speeders. "Feeling" that slower drivers are making everybody less safe is not the same as *actually* making everybody less safe. Why is it that the folks who wish to speed are the most vocal about the dire safety consequences of the people driving at or below the speed limit?

And that brings us to courtesy. If you want everybody to be happy with their driving, and you don't care about safety or conservation of resources, or pollution - then the uncontested action is to always make sure you're not impeding anybody no matter what. Everybody is at least superficially happy if they can travel at whatever speed they wish. And if all else is equal, I suppose a case can be made that a happy driver is safer to be around that a pissed-off driver.

And finally the law. It never fails to amaze me to hear what people think the driving laws are. They were told something by a police officer. They heard it in traffic school. Somebody they know got a ticket for it. NONE of this determines what's legal. The only thing that does is the vehicle code for the state you're in. There's no mystery. This is a public document that anybody can purchase (and now browse online in most cases). The traffic laws are ALL there. Yes, there is a bit of ambiguity in some edge cases - and those are decided in the courts. But all the stuff being discussed here - there's no gray area. It is all clearly spelled out in the VC's that I've seen. Why bother taking a guess at it? Why bother proving ignorance by claiming knowledge of the law without actually knowing the VC reference? Here's a huge hint for you: No police officer knows the entire VC. None of them. It is a bit like knowing the dictionary. They tend to know their favorite and most often cited sections. But they can't know the entire thing. A mere civilian can know more about the *relevant* section you may be interested in, than the police officer that is citing you. Being given a ticket for something does NOT make that action illegal. It only means that the police officer thinks it is. But he doesn't get to make that call. The court does. The police officer only gets to ruin your day and force you to show up and understand the law.

If you want to test this theory re. how much of the VC that a given officer knows, just try asking one about legal bicycle operation on a public road. That one is usually good for a laugh. I carry the relevant VC section on my bicycle with me because I have yet to meet an officer that knows it. They all THINK they know it. And every one has it wrong so far.

But I don't mean to digress. We're talking about the freedom to speed in a car. The *right* to speed in a car. And I can't wait for somebody (anybody!) to show me a VC reference that shows driving at anything under the posted *maximum* speed limit is illegal for the sole reason that they aren't driving AT the posted *maximum* speed limit. From some of these comments, you'd think that the only way to legally drive a car on a public road is to always drive at EXACTLY the posted speed limit. I mean it is obvious that you shouldn't exceed that... but apparently some folks feel you also should never drive below it. Man, that's a hard needle to thread at all times!

And then there are those who (seriously) contend that the posted limit is a minimum!
Great post! +1
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thankyouOB
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Re: Stuck behind a Leaf in HOV lane

Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:09 pm

nicely said.

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evnow
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Re: Stuck behind a Leaf in HOV lane

Sat Dec 31, 2011 3:16 pm

darelldd wrote:But I don't mean to digress. We're talking about the freedom to speed in a car. The *right* to speed in a car. And I can't wait for somebody (anybody!) to show me a VC reference that shows driving at anything under the posted *maximum* speed limit is illegal for the sole reason that they aren't driving AT the posted *maximum* speed limit. From some of these comments, you'd think that the only way to legally drive a car on a public road is to always drive at EXACTLY the posted speed limit. I mean it is obvious that you shouldn't exceed that... but apparently some folks feel you also should never drive below it. Man, that's a hard needle to thread at all times!

And then there are those who (seriously) contend that the posted limit is a minimum!
In PriusChat - there were actually people saying anyone who drives *below* the max limit should be ticketed.

I'm reminded of an article I had read on how speed is the new drug a long time back (in school).

I think CA budget woes can be solved by ticketing everyone breaking the law on the freeways by going over the speed limit ;)
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darelldd
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Re: Stuck behind a Leaf in HOV lane

Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:45 pm

Thanks guys. I can only take it for so long. ;) I'll need to get my thanks in before somebody (and you know it'll happen) takes me to task for some part of what I just wrote.

@Evnow - yes, that same PriusChat thread is what inspired the comments you quoted. There really are people who think that the posted speed limit is the *minimum* speed at which anybody should travel. Good lord.
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Email me: Domain is gmail.com. Name is darelldd@. Really. I hate PM.
2011 while SL with Chademo... new to me in 2015.

thankyouOB
Posts: 3583
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Location: Coastal LA

Re: Stuck behind a Leaf in HOV lane

Sat Dec 31, 2011 6:48 pm

darelldd wrote:Thanks guys. I can only take it for so long. ;) I'll need to get my thanks in before somebody (and you know it'll happen) takes me to task for some part of what I just wrote.

@Evnow - yes, that same PriusChat thread is what inspired the comments you quoted. There really are people who think that the posted speed limit is the *minimum* speed at which anybody should travel. Good lord.
way to go man.
gotchyer back.
bytheway, a search of the CA vehicle code shows nothing in the HOV section with regard to the issue of speed or keeping to the right.
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Randy
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Re: Stuck behind a Leaf in HOV lane

Sat Dec 31, 2011 7:35 pm

Thinking of George Carlin tonight :)

"Why is it that everyone driving faster than you is an idiot and everyone driving slower than you is a moron?"

GroundLoop
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Re: Stuck behind a Leaf in HOV lane

Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:10 am

TNleaf wrote: If you want to test this theory re. how much of the VC that a given officer knows, just try asking one about legal bicycle operation on a public road. That one is usually good for a laugh. I carry the relevant VC section on my bicycle with me because I have yet to meet an officer that knows it. They all THINK they know it. And every one has it wrong so far.
I'm not a bicyclist, but I'm curious -- are they totally immune to stop signs, stop lights, and so on? I see every bicyclist in San Diego blowing through intersections like they have Diplomatic Immunity. Is there a special VC carveout for this?

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dgpcolorado
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Re: Stuck behind a Leaf in HOV lane

Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:53 am

GroundLoop wrote:
TNleaf wrote: If you want to test this theory re. how much of the VC that a given officer knows, just try asking one about legal bicycle operation on a public road. That one is usually good for a laugh. I carry the relevant VC section on my bicycle with me because I have yet to meet an officer that knows it. They all THINK they know it. And every one has it wrong so far.
I'm not a bicyclist, but I'm curious -- are they totally immune to stop signs, stop lights, and so on? I see every bicyclist in San Diego blowing through intersections like they have Diplomatic Immunity. Is there a special VC carveout for this?
No. And as a bicycle commuter since 1978 (starting in San Diego, as it happens) I stop at every stop sign and stop light. And bicyclists who don't piss me off because they get car drivers irritated at bicycles in general. (That's less of a problem where I live now because pretty much everyone who passes me knows who I am in this tiny, rural county, and they tend to be polite and courteous.)

I can't speak for current California law (that's darelldd's turf), but in Colorado bicycles riding on roadways are subject to nearly all the traffic restrictions that motor vehicles are. Including stopping at stop signs and lights. So I do.
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