jjeff
Posts: 2379
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: Battery upgrades: Is there truly no hope for 24kWH Leafs?

Sat May 01, 2021 1:19 pm

lorenfb wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 12:21 pm
jjeff wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 10:17 am

Totally agree with your assessment of the other EVs you mentioned, I had the same complaints when I looked at them, almost like the makers wanted to give them all a poison pill to keep people from wanting them so they could say, "we tried to make an EV, no one wanted them"
And what are the key features that have been lacking in BEVs that would even achieve ten percent of Tesla's 2020 sales volume?
Think about it, if Ford produced an identical MY, but with a Ford insignia, what sales volume would Ford achieve even if it were lucky?
It's not as simple as one might suggest, e.g. by adding lacking/appealing BEV features, to significantly convert the ICEV appeal to a BEV.
No key features missing but things that a large percentage of people dislike, when was the last time you read posts about the Bolt where the awful seats didn't come up. I can live without certain features(although I really want a heated steering wheel) but won't live with some of the poison pills some mfgs have put in their EVs. I really didn't like the bug lights of my Leafs(gen1) but was willing to overlook it as Nissans competition was even worse. And no I never looked at Teslas, for one thing when I was looking the only model was the S and it was out of my price range, even used ones and at the time MN had even less Teslas than Leafs, that has changed now and a day doesn't go by when I don't see one model or another Tesla, I'd still say I see more model S's than others, X's and 3's are about tied in MN, or from what I see.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

lorenfb
Posts: 2509
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: Battery upgrades: Is there truly no hope for 24kWH Leafs?

Sat May 01, 2021 2:57 pm

lorenfb wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 12:21 pm
jjeff wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 10:17 am

Totally agree with your assessment of the other EVs you mentioned, I had the same complaints when I looked at them, almost like the makers wanted to give them all a poison pill to keep people from wanting them so they could say, "we tried to make an EV, no one wanted them"
And what are the key features that have been lacking in BEVs that would even achieve ten percent of Tesla's 2020 sales volume?
Think about it, if Ford produced an identical MY, but with a Ford insignia, what sales volume would Ford achieve even if it were lucky?
It's not as simple as one might suggest, e.g. by adding lacking/appealing BEV features, to significantly convert the ICEV appeal to a BEV.
jjeff wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 10:17 am
No key features missing but things that a large percentage of people dislike, when was the last time you read posts about the Bolt where the awful seats didn't come up. I can live without certain features(although I really want a heated steering wheel) but won't live with some of the poison pills some mfgs have put in their EVs. I really didn't like the bug lights of my Leafs(gen1) but was willing to overlook it as Nissans competition was even worse.
Yes, those issues do have an effect, which might improve BEV sales for a given company by 10-20%, but only for those consumers who even consider a BEV.
jjeff wrote:
Sat May 01, 2021 1:19 pm
And no I never looked at Teslas, for one thing when I was looking the only model was the S and it was out of my price range, even used ones and at the time MN had even less Teslas than Leafs, that has changed now and a day doesn't go by when I don't see one model or another Tesla, I'd still say I see more model S's than others, X's and 3's are about tied in MN, or from what I see.
Tesla is very unique brand which sells extremely well, and presently can't easily be duplicated by other manufactures even by significantly changing their BEV product lines.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

Boxman
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:37 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Apr 2017
Leaf Number: 423008

Re: Battery upgrades: Is there truly no hope for 24kWH Leafs?

Sat May 01, 2021 4:59 pm

Thanks for your collective advice, folks! I was hoping someone would steer me towards some aftermarket battery upgrade that I'd somehow missed (haha wishful thinking).

I have to say, I'm surprised to hear some of you recommending a Gen 2 Leaf. After Nissan failed to include a battery cooling system on the Gen 2 (the very reason I'm having to replace my Gen 1 in the first place), I wasn't expecting any of you to recommend buying a new Leaf for a lot more money, only to suffer the same battery degradation all over again. Also, the Gen 2 is a downgrade in some respects. It's exterior styling is generic and boring (I actually like the way the Gen 1 Leaf looks), the elevated speedometer display (above the steering wheel - the next best thing to having a true heads up display) is gone, and it's not even all that cost competitive vs the Bolt or even the Model 3/Y. But more than anything, the lack of battery cooling just seems like a ticking time bomb.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 16921
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Battery upgrades: Is there truly no hope for 24kWH Leafs?

Sat May 01, 2021 5:28 pm

The battery chemistry was changed yet again for the Gen II, and it's now much more like the 2015-2016 24kwh "Lizard Pack" in that it degrades at a fairly modest rate in all but Hot climates. My 2018, which I admit was babied, lost less than 10% capacity over 3 years. The average loss is about 4% a year. The first year loss is usually higher, so in 2019 a lot of us were unhappy with the new packs, but over time they have proven to be at least worth it in less hot climates.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

Boxman
Posts: 11
Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:37 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Apr 2017
Leaf Number: 423008

Re: Battery upgrades: Is there truly no hope for 24kWH Leafs?

Sat May 01, 2021 8:44 pm

Interesting... do we have good data on the Gen 2 Leaf packs degradation over time (beyond anecdotal reports)? Curious how the Gen 2 Leafs compare to other EV's out there in terms of battery degradation.

Regarding the Gen 1's made after April 2013 (mine was manufactured in Nov 2013), is the data showing the pack degradation beginning to level off over time (like, they degrade by 40% in the first 8-10 years, and then the rate of degradation slows down)? I've heard that mentioned a couple of times, that is, that the so-called "Lizard" batteries degrade most dramatically in the early years of use, then it begins to level off. Maybe that's just wishful thinking also...

If my battery degradation is probably going to slow down (or at least not accelerate), then I'm considering just living with my (still pristine, fully loaded) 2013 SV until the 2022 Bolt comes out, which finally looks like a worthy upgrade that isn't a Tesla and is actually affordable.

alozzy
Posts: 1930
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Battery upgrades: Is there truly no hope for 24kWH Leafs?

Sat May 01, 2021 9:07 pm

If one is extremely fortunate enough to win the battery lottery - finding a 40kWh pack, in good condition, for $8k or less - then it's marginally worthwhile.

A net cost of $10k for a 2018 LEAF upgrade, a car that's 5 years younger, just makes way more common sense to me.

The way I see it, if you wait too long then the 2013 LEAF will be worth only the salvage value of the 24kWh pack.

So, either find a way to live with limited range and drive it into the ground, or sell it for whatever you can get now, if it no longer meets your needs, and move on. Any middle ground between those two will just lead to frustration and disappointment...
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

Return to “General / Main Owners Forum”