LeftieBiker
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Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:43 pm

I agree that in 2015 (but not 2016 or 2017, except for the 2016 Lizard pack) and again from 2018 on, the Leaf's passively cooled packs are fine for any climate that isn't quite Hot. The big asterisk here, though, is the Rapidgate issue, which doesn't affect people like me. Rather than restrict the sale of Leafs, or force Nissan to stop selling them altogether, what is needed is a clear message to the public that not all vehicles are suited to all locales.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

alozzy
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Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:46 pm

GerryAZ wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:31 pm
I am a little sick of the Nissan bashing here because Nissan and my dealer have treated me fairly.
It might sound like Nissan bashing, but I frankly expected and hoped for so much more from Nissan. As a market pioneer of lithium ion based EVs, Nissan could have continued to innovate, to stay ahead of the competition, and to be the market leader to which all other EV manufacturers are compared. Instead, they were passive - like their batteries! :lol:

Bottom line, owners have a right to expect a car to be able to perform well under all "normal" conditions. For those in hot climates, that means the pack shouldn't excessively overheat and the DC charging rate shouldn't drop to single digit kW. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation of any EV manufacturer. Nissan can do better with the LEAF, they choose not to...
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
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SageBrush
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Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 am

alozzy wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:29 pm
I don't think that any EV manufacturer should be permitted to sell passively cooled EVs in hot climates - it's unethical.
Tricky question. As Cwerdna is fond of pointing out, the Bay area has micro-climates that vary by 20F. Should CA ban the LEAF because of a hot micro-climate ? Is 80F OK, but 81F verboten ? I live in the foothills of Albuquerque in the "hot" Southwest USA at 6300 feet elevation. A couple miles away and 1000 feet lower elevation is is ~ 4F hotter year round. Where shall the Gov set the illegal to sell sign ? I don't think your suggestion, no matter how well-meaning, is viable.

How about mandating a better and longer degradation warranty ? Maybe, but even well intentioned Tesla did not have a degradation warranty at all up until recently, and it is a puny one now. I suspect that the base issue is that the manufacturer does not want to incentivize owner abuse of the car.

For these reasons, I am most in favor of mandated disclosure. At a minimum Nissan should prominently report on the window sticker that the pack is passively cooled. I would not let Nissan promote 2 DCFC sessions before pack over-heating unless the test is in 90F weather and a 20 - 80 SoC change (or more) each charge. I mention Nissan here, but disclosure regulations should be performance based for all EVs.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

knightmb
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Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:49 am

I agree with the spirit of it, but Nissan isn't the only one with battery overheating issues. That's why I would rather have people vote with their wallets. :D
alozzy wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:46 pm
Bottom line, owners have a right to expect a car to be able to perform well under all "normal" conditions. For those in hot climates, that means the pack shouldn't excessively overheat and the DC charging rate shouldn't drop to single digit kW. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation of any EV manufacturer. Nissan can do better with the LEAF, they choose not to...
2020 Leaf SL Plus - (Manufacture Date March 2020)
2013 Leaf SV (8 faithful years of service before trade in at 75,679 miles)

SageBrush
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Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Mon Apr 26, 2021 7:16 am

This thread focuses on rapid-gating but cold-gating can be every bit as performance dropping, and it affects every EV manufacturer not named Tesla.

This comes down to the fact that EVs have their own set of trade-offs and quirks. Disclosure Regs have yet to catch up.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:49 am

The EPA needs to come up with a simple, easy to understand rating system for an EV's ability to deal with extreme climates. It could range from something like "C" (cold climates ok, warm to hot ones not) to "B" (OK for most climates, but avoid Hot ones) to "A" (full thermal management of battery, full suite of Winter comfort and range enhancements like heatpump and heated seats/steering wheel). A typical Tesla would get "A-" for having everything except the complete set of comfort features, a typical Leaf would get a "B" and a Bolt would get an "A" when fully equipped. They could also have Cutesy icons like a smiling Sun and a frowning ice cube. ;)
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

cwerdna
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Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:53 am

SageBrush wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 6:41 am
alozzy wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:29 pm
I don't think that any EV manufacturer should be permitted to sell passively cooled EVs in hot climates - it's unethical.
Tricky question. As Cwerdna is fond of pointing out, the Bay area has micro-climates that vary by 20F. Should CA ban the LEAF because of a hot micro-climate ? Is 80F OK, but 81F verboten ? I live in the foothills of Albuquerque in the "hot" Southwest USA at 6300 feet elevation. A couple miles away and 1000 feet lower elevation is is ~ 4F hotter year round. Where shall the Gov set the illegal to sell sign ? I don't think your suggestion, no matter how well-meaning, is viable.
It's actually a lot more than 20 F. One of the more extreme cases I pointed out is at viewtopic.php?p=533224#p533224 with a high temp difference of 49 F in the same day. 111 F in Dublin vs. 62 F in SF. Those two places are only 35 miles apart by car.

In summer, places like SF, Half Moon Bay and Pacifica (all next to the Pacific Ocean) stay cool whereas places like south San Jose and Gilroy tend to be hotter while Concord, Walnut Creek, Livermore, Antioch, Dublin (as examples) get really hot.

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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

alozzy
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Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:40 am

There are going to be hot days over the course of a summer in a lot of places - hot enough to cause the LEAF pack to get too hot to perform properly on those days. That's acceptable.

What's not acceptable is selling a LEAF to someone who lives in a desert climate, where most of the summer days are around 100F or more, without making then aware that the battery will degrade much faster over time and that the car will not perform optimally when the pack overheats.

Coming up with a formula to define "too hot" is challenging for sure, but one option would be a threshold for the historical average number of days where the temperature exceeds 100F. That could be easily represented on the sales sticker as a color coded bar graph. For example, 0-5 days gets green bars, 5-10 days gets yellow bars, anything over 10 gets red bars. A legend for the color coding could explain more details:

  • Green = your EV's performance should not be adversely affected by overheating in your climate
  • Yellow = your EV's performance will likely be occasionally affected by overheating in your climate
  • Red = your EVs performance will be adversely affected by overheating on a regular basis in your climate
Or something similar

I'll concede that buyer awareness is a better objective than outright bans, but any buyer awareness initiatives should be government mandated, using standardized labeling and wording
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:00 pm

The problem is that daily highs aren't the sole issue. If the nights are then cool, the packs can cool down. Places like Hawaii, where the daytime highs aren't extreme but the nights are also warm, thus keeping the packs hot, are harder on EV batteries than are high desert climates.
Brilliant Silver 2021 Leaf SV40 W/ Pro Pilot & Protection
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 2 lithium E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

alozzy
Posts: 1930
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Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:43 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:00 pm
The problem is that daily highs aren't the sole issue. If the nights are then cool, the packs can cool down. Places like Hawaii, where the daytime highs aren't extreme but the nights are also warm, thus keeping the packs hot, are harder on EV batteries than are high desert climates.
True for degradation, but the article the OP referred to discusses the rapidgate issues as a sore point. A new owner of a LEAF, living in a hot climate, is going to find out about that my much sooner than battery degradation (unless the owner has enough interest to read forums like these, and starts delving into LeafSpy too).

As we all know, rapidgate has taken a lot of new buyers by surprise.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

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