cwerdna
Posts: 12022
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Sun Apr 25, 2021 8:14 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:24 pm
Toyota knows that the Gen III Prius is a time bomb, with the ICE becoming unreliable after about 6 years - sooner if driven a lot of miles. The emission control system allows oil to build up in the oil separator, and there is no sensor to warn when the pressure threatens to blow the head gasket. They have never acknowledged it, just as they haven't acknowledged that several of their motors over the years have had issues with sludge buildup and/or high oil consumption.
Maybe so. I stopped being active on Priuschat years ago.

Someone I know with a gen 3 (2011 model year per his Priuschat profile) and who I'm FB friends with said in Feb 2019 "First major repair on my Prius after 185k of trouble-free miles. The headgasket failed and caused coolant to leak into cyl #2." He does a ton of DIY work and seems to have a side gig or something of working on cars of all makes and models.

I'm not sure what kind of crazy driving he does but he said in late Feb 2021 (pointing to his old post): "2 years and 30K miles later (now at 215K). The head gasket repair is holding up well. Car is running great!"

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium (former)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium (lease over)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

alozzy
Posts: 1937
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:29 pm

I don't think that any EV manufacturer should be permitted to sell passively cooled EVs in hot climates - it's unethical.

However, it's unrealistic to expect any car manufacturer to voluntarily remove a car from certain markets for ethical reasons. Big companies disregard ethical considerations whenever it suits them.

Instead, state legislators should step in to protect consumers - that's their job. AFAIK, excessive heat caused degradation, and heat related performance issues, should be covered by lemon laws.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

knightmb
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:41 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2021
Leaf Number: 306291
Location: Franklin, TN

Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:36 pm

I would see it more as a barrier to future technology, especially if battery chemistry evolves the point that an active cooling system is no longer necessary and passive works fine. Let the free market dictate the manufactures, not the government.
alozzy wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:29 pm
I don't think that any EV manufacturer should be permitted to sell passively cooled EVs in hot climates - it's unethical.

However, it's unrealistic to expect any car manufacturer to voluntarily remove a car from certain markets for ethical reasons. Big companies disregard ethical considerations whenever it suits them.

Instead, state legislators should step in to protect consumers - that's their job. AFAIK, excessive heat caused degradation, and heat related performance issues, should be covered by lemon laws.
2020 Leaf SL Plus - (Manufacture Date March 2020)
2013 Leaf SV (8 faithful years of service before trade in at 75,679 miles)

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2956
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:42 pm

I am probably in the minority, but I appreciate that Nissan developed the LEAF and was willing to sell it in Arizona when first introduced (and continues to sell it here). With passive air cooling of the battery pack, it is not suitable for multiple DC quick charges in a day in my climate, but I did not buy it for that. I prefer the simplicity and reduced energy consumption of passive cooling. Also, I routinely park at my office or the airport for extended time and the car keeps its 12V battery charged and loses very little SOC from the main battery even when parked for a month or more (regardless of ambient temperature). A couple weekends ago I drove over 100 miles on Saturday and 209.5 miles on Sunday without using DCQC. Most of those miles were keeping up with traffic on the urban freeways (speed limit of 65 mi/hr which is routinely exceeded). The highest battery temperature was 90.6 F at the end of the day Saturday and 109.9 F at the end of the day Sunday. There was never any power or regeneration limitation.

I have read many of the EV articles written by Jennifer Sensiba. She lived in the Phoenix area when the car was new and she used it as a ride-share driver (Lyft or Uber). She also took some highway trips so her car has likely seen many DCQC sessions and now has 70k miles.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

alozzy
Posts: 1937
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:52 pm

knightmb wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:36 pm
I would see it more as a barrier to future technology, especially if battery chemistry evolves the point that an active cooling system is no longer necessary and passive works fine. Let the free market dictate the manufactures, not the government.
alozzy wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:29 pm
I don't think that any EV manufacturer should be permitted to sell passively cooled EVs in hot climates - it's unethical.

However, it's unrealistic to expect any car manufacturer to voluntarily remove a car from certain markets for ethical reasons. Big companies disregard ethical considerations whenever it suits them.

Instead, state legislators should step in to protect consumers - that's their job. AFAIK, excessive heat caused degradation, and heat related performance issues, should be covered by lemon laws.
I disagree, this is a clear case where consumer protection is needed. If Nissan was influenced by ethical considerations, they would have either added active cooling or they would have decided to no longer sell the LEAF in hot climates - they did neither. It's not like this was a surprise for the 2018 LEAF - 7 prior model years proved that the LEAF is not viable in hot climates.

As to your point about battery technology progressing to the point where passively cooled packs will perform no worse in hot climates, that seems like a moot point since almost all EV manufacturers already use active cooling.

Further to my point, lemon laws are supposed to offer recourse to consumers when products "repeatedly fail to meet standards of quality and performance". I think a degraded LEAF pack, or one that's over heating due to consecutive DC chargers during hot conditions, should qualify, without having to include wording with respect to passive cooling.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

knightmb
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:41 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2021
Leaf Number: 306291
Location: Franklin, TN

Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:57 pm

Having a bunch of tech heads here in the forum, we all like to nitpick the vehicle and the company. It's just fun! :lol:

But, I have a lot of friends who still own their 2013, 2014, 2015 Leaf across various trim levels and have been very happy with them. Especially now after so many of years of basically no maintenance (compared to what they were use to with routine stuff on the gas vehicles they owned before). The difference for them, I was their source of information before they bought. I didn't try to be a salesman, I told exactly what to expect for limitations on driving, temperature, cold weather, battery degradation, etc. When they had the first winter and range dropped 10%, instead of complaining that the vehicle sucks, they accepted it as more of a "knew it was coming" thing and didn't stress over it. Adjusted driving habits to work with it. Unfortunately, a salesman at a dealership will say just about anything to make you want to buy the vehicle and they don't even know much about the Leaf to begin with, making things worse for people that do buy with high expectations or weekend road-trips across the country. :?
GerryAZ wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:42 pm
I am probably in the minority, but I appreciate that Nissan developed the LEAF and was willing to sell it in Arizona when first introduced (and continues to sell it here). With passive air cooling of the battery pack, it is not suitable for multiple DC quick charges in a day in my climate, but I did not buy it for that. I prefer the simplicity and reduced energy consumption of passive cooling. Also, I routinely park at my office or the airport for extended time and the car keeps its 12V battery charged and loses very little SOC from the main battery even when parked for a month or more (regardless of ambient temperature). A couple weekends ago I drove over 100 miles on Saturday and 209.5 miles on Sunday without using DCQC. Most of those miles were keeping up with traffic on the urban freeways (speed limit of 65 mi/hr which is routinely exceeded). The highest battery temperature was 90.6 F at the end of the day Saturday and 109.9 F at the end of the day Sunday. There was never any power or regeneration limitation.

I have read many of the EV articles written by Jennifer Sensiba. She lived in the Phoenix area when the car was new and she used it as a ride-share driver (Lyft or Uber). She also took some highway trips so her car has likely seen many DCQC sessions and now has 70k miles.
2020 Leaf SL Plus - (Manufacture Date March 2020)
2013 Leaf SV (8 faithful years of service before trade in at 75,679 miles)

alozzy
Posts: 1937
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:07 pm

GerryAZ wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:42 pm
I am probably in the minority, but I appreciate that Nissan developed the LEAF and was willing to sell it in Arizona when first introduced (and continues to sell it here).
Nissan gets a pass for the first few years, as it's possible that they were genuinely nieve about accelerated battery degradation in hot climates.

However, continuing to sell a passively cooled EV in hot climates is unethical, especially when they don't make it clear to prospective buyers that accelerated pack degradation due to heat is predictable and expected.

Even if Nissan halted sales in hot states, that wouldn't prevent consumers in those states from importing them from elsewhere...
Last edited by alozzy on Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

knightmb
Posts: 946
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:41 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2021
Leaf Number: 306291
Location: Franklin, TN

Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:10 pm

I agree with the spirit of what you are saying, but I think it would make it too easy to abuse against other EV manufactures, not just Nissan. First, you would have to establish what a standard of quality is for an EV that everyone can agree on. Even vehicles with active cooling systems can overheat the batteries by abusive drivers. They could claim the same that because they can't drive at +120 MPH before the battery overheats, the car must be broken. Also, there have already been class action lawsuits nearly a decade ago for exactly the same thing related to battery life issues. What is the government really going to do that will protect the consumer?
alozzy wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:52 pm
I disagree, this is a clear case where consumer protection is needed. If Nissan was influenced by ethical considerations, they would have either added active cooling or they would have decided to no longer sell the LEAF in hot climates - they did neither. It's not like this was a surprise for the 2018 LEAF - 7 prior model years proved that the LEAF is not viable in hot climates.

As to your point about battery technology progressing to the point where passively cooled packs will perform no worse in hot climates, that seems like a moot point since almost all EV manufacturers already use active cooling.

Further to my point, lemon laws are supposed to offer recourse to consumers when products "repeatedly fail to meet standards of quality and performance". I think a degraded LEAF pack, or one that's over heating due to consecutive DC chargers during hot conditions, should qualify, without having to include wording with respect to passive cooling.
2020 Leaf SL Plus - (Manufacture Date March 2020)
2013 Leaf SV (8 faithful years of service before trade in at 75,679 miles)

alozzy
Posts: 1937
Joined: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:25 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:23 pm

What is the government really going to do that will protect the consumer?
Hold EV manufacturers accountable for the flaws that they knowing made to products they sold - no different than with ICE cars that have engine or transmission design flaws that result in premature failure, poor fuel economy, etc.

Why should EVs get a pass on such egregious flaws? Passively cooled packs simply aren't adequate in hot climates, it's not really debatable at this point.

I was shocked when Nissan didn't incorporate active cooling in the 2018 MY. While a passively cooled pack works OK in the PNW where I live, Nissan should be making a robust product that's suitable for all climates in which they want to sell it.

I should add that my 2013 SV has so far been a great car. I personally don't have any cause for complaint...

However, that doesn't mean that I feel no empathy for someone who, in good faith, purchases a new LEAF and expects the car to perform as advertised, for at least the full warranty period. Consumers should not be expected to be EV experts when purchasing a new EV - products and manufactures should be expected to offer quality products that perform as advertised
Last edited by alozzy on Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2956
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Good hard-hitting test and commentary on a 2018 Nissan Leaf

Sun Apr 25, 2021 10:31 pm

I am a little sick of the Nissan bashing here because Nissan and my dealer have treated me fairly. The salesman I purchased my cars from has recently retired, but he drove a 2011 LEAF and was careful to explain the limitations of the vehicle each time. Nissan retroactively provided a 5-year, 60,000-mile capacity warranty on my 2011 long before I received information from the lawyers regarding the class action lawsuit. Later, Nissan EV Customer Service called me to ask me to take the car to my dealer for additional testing so they could start the battery replacement process. I opted out of the class action lawsuit and would probably still be driving the 2011 if it had not met its early demise (would probably have put a 62 kWh battery in by now).

The 62 kWh battery in my 2019 is doing well after over 30k miles so far. The battery in the 2015 was much better than the original or replacement in the 2011 and the 2019 is doing much better than the 2015. Actively-cooled batteries in the Ford Focus EV were not significantly better than the LEAF batteries in my climate. That may be why Ford made it difficult to buy them here even though they were technically available. Many other manufacturers chose not to sell their EV's here even with active cooling.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

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