SageBrush
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Posts: 6261
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: What is going to be your next EV?

Tue May 11, 2021 4:41 pm

dmacarthur wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:41 pm
Mister Grumpy here will bet large bills that the RAV (or any other car of its weight, for that matter) will NEVER get 120 MPG when used beyond the EV capability. Drive, say, 200 miles, 40 on the battery and 160 on the ICE, you MAY see 60 MPG but Grumpy doubts it. And as for the RAV mileage when used for long trips: Grumpy doubts 45 but is willing to listen to real life stories. Too much finagling of numbers, let us see some actual info.....
If you are not using brakes, extra car weight only matters about

RR*g*m*1000 joules per km

g - 9.8
m - extra car mass in Kg
RR -- tyre rolling resistance, in the range of 0.009 -- 0.011

Example:
An extra 100 kg of mass, presuming 0.01 RR, works out to 10k joules per km = 4.47 Wh/mile.
So a 200 mile jaunt without extra braking in a 500 Kg heavier car requires 4.5 kWh extra to offset the weight.

....
And if you are using brakes, regen recoups 30 - 50%

---
My experience with a Toyota type PHEV was a year ownership of the Prime. That car had about 5.3 kWh usable capacity between charges and I drove it 90 miles each time. I was a careful driver and mostly drive ~ 60 mph. I used to average 90-ish mpg in the Colorado winter and 110 - 125 mpg in benign weather. That few people will drive as I did is a given, but you should reconsider your wager because it is approaching the do-able at the lower end of the legal highway speed limit. FYI -- the RAV PHEV has 18.1 kWh nominal capacity. Back in the day Toyota allowed ~ 65% of nominal as usable for NiMH. I'm not sure if that has changed for the RAV.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

jjeff
Posts: 2383
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: What is going to be your next EV?

Wed May 12, 2021 7:44 am

SageBrush wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 4:41 pm
FYI -- the RAV PHEV has 18.1 kWh nominal capacity. Back in the day Toyota allowed ~ 65% of nominal as usable for NiMH. I'm not sure if that has changed for the RAV.
I'm guessing they must have trimmed that down(the unusable that is) as the Rav4 Prime is supposed to have an EPA 40 mile EV-only range and I'd think they would need close to that 18.1 kWh to achieve that with a design like the Rav4. Could be wrong though and as a future owner, I wouldn't mind getting 40 miles EV with a large headroom for battery life, especially since I'm planning on running down the battery as much as possible before letting the ICE kick in. Unlike my Leaf where I very rarely run it down into a low SOC.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

SageBrush
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Posts: 6261
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: What is going to be your next EV?

Wed May 12, 2021 7:53 am

jjeff wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:44 am
SageBrush wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 4:41 pm
FYI -- the RAV PHEV has 18.1 kWh nominal capacity. Back in the day Toyota allowed ~ 65% of nominal as usable for NiMH. I'm not sure if that has changed for the RAV.
I'm guessing they must have trimmed that down(the unusable that is) as the Rav4 Prime is supposed to have an EPA 40 mile EV-only range and I'd think they would need close to that 18.1 kWh to achieve that with a design like the Rav4. Could be wrong though and as a future owner, I wouldn't mind getting 40 miles EV with a large headroom for battery life, especially since I'm planning on running down the battery as much as possible before letting the ICE kick in. Unlike my Leaf where I very rarely run it down into a low SOC.
That is not how the Toyota PHEV works. You are in EV mode until the system automatically kicks you into HEV mode at a certain SOC. That was ~ 1.5 kWh usable remaining for the Prius Prime.

I googled for the usable in the RAV PHEV yesterday without a good answer. The best I found was a person who reported 17.1 kWh metered to go from 'empty' to 'full.' I presume he was using an L1 meter like kill-a-watt but it was not specified. If L1 charging efficiency is .... say ... 82% then 17.1*0.82 = 14 kWh went into the battery. That still does not clear up what fraction of the HEV SoC range was replenished so it remains uncertain what the usable kWh is in PHEV mode. I'll guess somewhere in the 13 - 13.5 range.

As for usable kWh in any *EV mode, that will be ~ 14/18.1 = 77%. If true, a definite bump up from earlier generations of HSD.

----
Sideways comment: I am *so* happy to not care about +/- a kWh in my Tesla.
Last edited by SageBrush on Wed May 12, 2021 8:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

jjeff
Posts: 2383
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: What is going to be your next EV?

Wed May 12, 2021 8:02 am

SageBrush wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 7:53 am
That is not how the Toyota PHEV works. You are in EV mode until the system automatically kicks you into HEV mode at a certain SOC. That was ~ 1.5 kWh usable remaining for the Prius Prime.

I googled for the usable in the RAV PHEV yesterday without a good answer. The best I found was a person who reported 17.1 kWh metered to go from 'empty' to 'full.' I presume he was using an L1 meter like kill-a-watt but it was not specified. If L1 charging efficiency is .... say ... 82% then 17.1*0.82 = 14 kWh went into the battery. That still does not clear up what fraction of the HEV SoC range was used
I must have said something confusing as, thats how I was planning on using it. But I also thought, and maybe I'm wrong? that the Prime had some sort of save EV feature or even an option to force the ICE to run and charge the battery. I know other PHEVs have these options, I'm thinking of the Outlander PHEV has such options but I'd probably just leave it on EV first to get the most out of the battery and charge it up when I get home.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

SageBrush
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6261
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: What is going to be your next EV?

Wed May 12, 2021 8:18 am

jjeff wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 8:02 am
I also thought, and maybe I'm wrong? that the Prime had some sort of save EV feature or even an option to force the ICE to run and charge the battery.
The Prius Prime had both, so it's a fair guess the RAV4 Prime will too. I never bothered with the force charge since I thought it was worse than useless but I routinely used HEV mode to conserve battery charge or to engage ICE heating in the winter.

My commute was urban - rural - urban - rural - urban. I would use EV mode for the urban portions and HEV mode for the rural drive. It was a nice game for a year. The embedded riddle is to maximize efficiency while minimizing pollution. It mostly boils down to minimizing ICE re-heats while using up all the usable battery SoC between charges.

---
I am so glad to drive an EV these days where that stuff is irrelevant. I'm much happier futzing with regulatory bodies and permits to build more PV and clean energy. The car dines on my efforts.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

goldbrick
Posts: 1259
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:33 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Aug 2017
Leaf Number: 311806
Location: Boulder, CO

Re: What is going to be your next EV?

Wed May 12, 2021 9:51 am

If there is a Rav4 Prime thread I'll update that in a few weeks. My car is waiting for me on a lot in RI and I'll probably buy it on the 22nd and ship it home then. I expect to be driving it around by the end of the month.

In the meantime, my understanding is that the Rav4 has a ICE mode, an EV mode and a 'mixed mode'. Or something like that. I'm sure the nomenclature is different but that is how I understand it. I'll find out once I take possession of the car.

jjeff
Posts: 2383
Joined: Wed Jan 13, 2016 9:10 am
Delivery Date: 13 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 422121
Location: MSP MN

Re: What is going to be your next EV?

Wed May 12, 2021 11:24 am

goldbrick wrote:
Wed May 12, 2021 9:51 am
If there is a Rav4 Prime thread I'll update that in a few weeks. My car is waiting for me on a lot in RI and I'll probably buy it on the 22nd and ship it home then. I expect to be driving it around by the end of the month.
https://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=30446
I thought CO was going to get the RAV4 Prime sooner than some non-CARB states like mine? I have read of people going to RI to get theirs sooner though. My daughter and I may end up driving to CO to get her new car as Hyundai doesn't seem fit to sell the Ionic PHEV in our state :( I think it's another CARB thing! We can get the hybrid Ionic but not EV or even PHEV, similar to what Honda did to my state.
Last edited by jjeff on Wed May 12, 2021 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2693
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: What is going to be your next EV?

Wed May 12, 2021 11:25 am

We are leaning towards a Mach-e currently, but not sure we need a car for (at least) another year. It kind of depends on what our 17 and 19 year old kids do in the next 18 months.
2019 S Plus (93.86% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (93.35% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

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